It's hard for me to compare something like Zen Arcade to Damaged to Up on the Sun, and try and draw conclusions about any kind of production or "Spot sound" that's happening. Especially with Black Flag and Husker Du who were evolving fast and had strong, opinionated leaders. I guess if I think of "Spot production" it's that stuff tends to sound pretty dry and isolated, which gives the material a weird feeling of being both sterile and in-your-face. I dunno, I wasn't making records in the 80s, but wasn't that the aesthetic: record everything dry and isolated and gated, and slap on some shitty digital reverb in the mix? It's like those SST records did that, but without adding the reverb.

jason_from_volo wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:42 am When I listen to records like "Zen Arcade" or Black Flag's "Damaged", I notice what seems to be a lack of high frequency information, like everything including instruments was recorded using SM-58s or similarly ubiquitous microphones. I have no idea if this is true, but if it is, I am guessing this was due to a limitation of what equipment Spot had available.

Personally, I don't notice a lack of any fundamental high frequency information.
I do notice a lack of fundamental low end though.
Nothing to do with Shure mics. They are great mics, and I don't see how they present any sort of limitation that would spoil the production of an album.

jason_from_volo wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:42 am That being said, if I were to compare the sound of, say, "What Makes a Man Start Fires?" vs. "Double Nickels on the Dime", I undoubtedly have a very strong preference for the latter's production.

Double Nickels on the Dime does sound better. Hard to draw comparison between Minutemen and Husker Du though.
Minutemen were probably some of the tightest musicians ever on SST.

jason_from_volo wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:42 am < edit > Also wanted to note that when I compare the sound of "Zen Arcade" with "Flip Your Wig", I strongly prefer "Zen Arcade". So he was doing something right. Or maybe more accurately, not doing something wrong. < / edit >

Not Crap, but with all kinds of waffles.

I am generally reluctant to shit on the artist, and usually very willing to shit on the engineer or producer.
Spot's work doesn't all sound great, but I think Husker Du self producing has more to do with their albums sounding shit.
Black Flag or the Minutemen were better musicians by a mile and weren't trying to "produce" their own albums.

twelvepoint wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:02 pm It's hard for me to compare something like Zen Arcade to Damaged to Up on the Sun, and try and draw conclusions about any kind of production or "Spot sound" that's happening. Especially with Black Flag and Husker Du who were evolving fast and had strong, opinionated leaders.

Yeah, and I think it was situational as well. I remember reading by New Day Rising it had become a pissing contest of who's in charge or whatever, which explains a lot about that record and also why it was their last together.

The recordings are mostly fine compared to a lot of other American underground stuff. Maybe Inner Ear stuff was slightly better but it was such a different era as far as resources available and technology itself.

penningtron wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:42 pm
The recordings are mostly fine compared to a lot of other American underground stuff. Maybe Inner Ear stuff was slightly better but it was such a different era as far as resources available and technology itself.

One of the only records that really stands out to me from the early independent era that hasn't dated very much is Burma's VS.

Black Flag had a hand in the production of every album they ever recorded.

Husker Du were great musicians. Zen Arcade is over 90% first takes. Their records sound like screaming white noise marching thru the complacency of the Reagan era, every time someone tries to remix 'em they fuck up the magic. That's just how the band sounds.

Spot's production is a little thin, but he accurately captured the sound of a half-dozen of the best bands in the early 80's. The only SST band who I thought needed a different producer was Saint Vitus. But this was jam-econo days, and I'm not sure how it could be improved for the time and the money everyone had. Everyone still listens to the albums he engineered - that speaks for itself.

tallchris wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:56 pm

penningtron wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:42 pm
The recordings are mostly fine compared to a lot of other American underground stuff. Maybe Inner Ear stuff was slightly better but it was such a different era as far as resources available and technology itself.

One of the only records that really stands out to me from the early independent era that hasn't dated very much is Burma's VS.

Mission of Burma and Pere Ubu haven't aged a day!

I know Ken Hamann engineered bands in the Cleveland hard rock scene, so that explains Ubu, but who the hell was Richard W. Harte?

tallchris wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:56 pm

penningtron wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:42 pm
The recordings are mostly fine compared to a lot of other American underground stuff. Maybe Inner Ear stuff was slightly better but it was such a different era as far as resources available and technology itself.

One of the only records that really stands out to me from the early independent era that hasn't dated very much is Burma's VS.

yeah, cuz they had a (seemingly) rich guy friend/fan/producer!

penningtron wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:42 pm

twelvepoint wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:02 pm It's hard for me to compare something like Zen Arcade to Damaged to Up on the Sun, and try and draw conclusions about any kind of production or "Spot sound" that's happening. Especially with Black Flag and Husker Du who were evolving fast and had strong, opinionated leaders.

Yeah, and I think it was situational as well. I remember reading by New Day Rising it had become a pissing contest of who's in charge or whatever, which explains a lot about that record and also why it was their last together.

My point exactly about them self producing. But wasn't New Day Rising only the 3rd of their 5 or 6 LP releases?

penningtron wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:42 pm
The recordings are mostly fine compared to a lot of other American underground stuff. Maybe Inner Ear stuff was slightly better but it was such a different era as far as resources available and technology itself.

Perhaps a difference in taste or just differences in our hearing loss, but I find Inner Ear and Alternative Tentacles had all around better sounding records in the 80s.
Compared to SST releases from middle 80's, the Faith/Void split from 82 sounds much better to me somehow.
Same goes for Bad Brains or Flipper or DK.

I'm reluctant to put any of this on technology of the day.
We know at the same point in time better sounding records were made with less, and absolutely vice versa.

brownreasontolive wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 1:05 pm

penningtron wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:42 pm

twelvepoint wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:02 pm It's hard for me to compare something like Zen Arcade to Damaged to Up on the Sun, and try and draw conclusions about any kind of production or "Spot sound" that's happening. Especially with Black Flag and Husker Du who were evolving fast and had strong, opinionated leaders.

Yeah, and I think it was situational as well. I remember reading by New Day Rising it had become a pissing contest of who's in charge or whatever, which explains a lot about that record and also why it was their last together.

My point exactly about them self producing. But wasn't New Day Rising only the 3rd of their 5 or 6 LP releases?

I meant a pissing contest between the band and Spot. (maybe the band squabbled internally too but obviously they went on for a few more years)

Good call on the Pere Ubu recordings, those sound amazing. Mitch Easter's stuff was good for the bands he recorded but that's getting more college rock/indie I suppose.

wot wrote: Black Flag had a hand in the production of every album they ever recorded.

But weren't BF concerned about having "Produced by Black Flag" on the liner notes for their second album.
Maybe Spot didn't want credit for producing HD

penningtron wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 1:11 pm

brownreasontolive wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 1:05 pm

penningtron wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:42 pm
Yeah, and I think it was situational as well. I remember reading by New Day Rising it had become a pissing contest of who's in charge or whatever, which explains a lot about that record and also why it was their last together.

My point exactly about them self producing. But wasn't New Day Rising only the 3rd of their 5 or 6 LP releases?

I meant a pissing contest between the band and Spot. (maybe the band squabbled internally too but obviously they went on for a few more years)

Ah, fair enough. I assumed you meant a pissing contest between Hart and Mould, which is well documented.
Whether it was in-fighting or a struggle for control with the producer/engineer,

wot wrote: Husker Du were great musicians. Zen Arcade is over 90% first takes. Their records sound like screaming white noise marching thru the complacency of the Reagan era, every time someone tries to remix 'em they fuck up the magic. That's just how the band sounds.

Infighting could be the reason for 90% first takes, not superior musicianship?

A truckload of speculation and bias on my part(plz don't hate me ), but I need to reinforce my NC for Spot.
I've probably spent 1000 hours listening to SST records without thinking "who recorded this trash", only to conclude that "Spot be to blame".