I thought it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on how well these classic depictions of dystopian societies anticipated our current (and near future) state of affairs. Perhaps less of a comparison of either as literature, and more as the competing concepts of social control.

1984 - It’s hard to deny that there has been quite a rise in authoritarianism across the planet, as well as social acceptance of it. The Chinese CP make zero attempt to camouflage their total media control and techno-espionage. Far right populism is flourishing in the US and abroad. The end of the US democratic republic doesn’t seem far fetched in our very near future.

Brave New World - I’ve always thought this was the more chilling and prescient scenario - the concept of being entertained and distracted into submission and complacency doesn’t seem at all far fetched. 500 channels on demand, YouTube famous for 15 minutes, drug gummies and Ketamine outpatient clinics (both of which I support). The rise of memes amongst the young-ins as a stand in for culture: so many of my 24yr old coworkers love memes involving films that they’ve never seen or have patience for. The trend of media becoming small, easily digestible bites rather than substantive or difficult.

In the case of the U.S. it's pretty clear that the seductive brain washing of BNW is more the case than the outright brutality of 1984.

The persistent retelling of untruths via social media and TV again and again and again and again until they become accepted as at least possibility is pure Orwell, and isn't that the most terrifying facet of our time? Nothing is true or real? Or that we can decide what is true and real based on something other than what is provable?

1984.

Orwell? Huxley? What about Ballard? (For the case that could be made for latter being most prescient, see here.)

But in truth it’s probably some sort of combination thereof, and how the percentages break down hinges on one’s country of origin, class affiliations, social standing, and so on.

Have never been a big Adam Curtis fan, but I watched Can’t Get You Out of My Head when it came out about a year ago. My opinion of it as a whole and his work overall are beside the point, but among the various issues touched upon, he posited a curious disparity between the U.S. and much of the West’s embrace of social media, on the one hand, and places like China’s relative curtailing of it, on the other.

Am paraphrasing here, but he said that in the case of the U.S. and the U.K. and all, people interacting with others (directly or indirectly) via these means tended to make them more insular (in the real world) and aggravated and depressed, more tribalistic but sometimes wary of “people as a whole.” When they read the sort of things that were in other people’s heads, they often became more distant from strangers, sometimes less sociable overall and not as empathetic to those outside their given groups. However, Curtis argued, in the case of places like China, where state control is more explicit, being kept more out of the loop of how others felt about life had a similar effect—the lack of open communication about “the elephant in the room” (political and social climate) made citizens weaker, more despondent, and easier to atomize/control and probably sell things to.

It’s telling that of societies to adopt the cartoonishly hellish social credit system lampooned in Black Mirror’s Nosedive, China was among the first. Here, staying unblemished, being innocuous and “getting with the program” in the eyes of others, is but a means of state control, one easily quantified that affects one's job prospects, ability to travel and own a home, etc. Though the U.S. has yet to adopt this, you can spot a more benign, sublimated version of it already: people on various platforms can unwittingly internalize their self-worth based on how many “likes,” views/listens, retweets, and followers they accrue. If one isn’t careful, he can begin to see himself like a stock in the market, whose intrinsic value goes up and down in relation to the favor (or lack thereof) of others, in whatever arenas he participates in (not to mention, in some in which he doesn’t).

Was already tired of it, but when I learned that Facebook started within a day of DARPA being shut down (a mere coincidence?), it was reason enough for me to torpedo not only my personal account, but the one for my art concerns. If someone needs to get ahold of me, I've already got a website anyway.

Lastly, while we might at present reside somewhere between Huxley’s vision of the future and Orwell’s, Philip K. Dick’s (if we may generalize) is worth bringing into the fold, as he seems to be the one who popularized the idea of near-omnipresent advertising.

It’s a mix of both, plus the ultra-powerful corporations of C.M. Kornbluth and Frederick Pohl and many other SF writers. 1984 was more prescient about surveillance, I guess.

I used to think the future of western liberal capitalism was more Brave New World, but Orwell has been making a comeback lately. Particularly with regards to things such as using language to control thought. The effects of really aggressively anti-intellectual propaganda and relentless gaslighting, and power being an end in itself. For no reason. Pointless human misery forever.

I tend to take my helping of dystopia with a healthy side of Vonnegut, as I am more inclined to sigh and shrug at this point. But the authoritarianism of 1984 is where we'll end up sooner than later.

losthighway wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 7:17 am In the case of the U.S. it's pretty clear that the seductive brain washing of BNW is more the case than the outright brutality of 1984.

This.

Oh I dunno, when it comes to minorities the US has tended to favour the ole' outright brutality, and if Trump gets his coup I wouldn't rule anything out. Is everybody feeling pretty confident the right-wing dictatorship is a non-starter? Because imminent fascist takeover of the US seems to be the hot topic of 2022.

Maybe the seductive brainwashing of the middle class is just part of the transition period to boot on human face forever.

Anthony Flack wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:44 pm Oh I dunno, when it comes to minorities the US has tended to favour the ole' outright brutality, and if Trump gets his coup I wouldn't rule anything out. Is everybody feeling pretty confident the right-wing dictatorship is a non-starter? Because imminent fascist takeover of the US seems to be the hot topic of 2022.

Maybe the seductive brainwashing of the middle class is just part of the transition period to boot on human face forever.

This is why I said it’s a mix, all of the above, including the sci-fi “megacorporation” type of dystopia.

1984 has the surveillance state right. We probably won’t get urban-flavored fascism that pretends to be socialism, though. That part of 1984 was based on the rise of Stalin.

Brave New World had the media saturation.

I think both are wrong about a centralized government as the means of oppression. That can be done and has been, but what the US is careening toward has elements of this little known, satirical science fiction novel, The Space Merchants. Huge, powerful corporations and ineffectual government. Terrible industrially produced food. Pollution and overpopulation.