Prompted by the Dizzee Rascal thread...

I know you'll all say that it's not fair to lump all rap together, but the essence of C/NC is that it's not supposed to be fair. Does the good rap outweigh the bad? Is there such a thing as good rap? Is there such a thing as bad rap? Decisions, decisions....

I personally am going to go with crap. I'm not racist or anything, but I've never even liked the "indie" rap Pitchforks always hypes up. I must admit, though, I have a soft spot for the Roots, but in essence the Roots make rap music that generally appeals to people who don't like rap too much.

i think it's as good as anything else when done well

opera, i would be tempted to vote crap, knowing full well i would be doing so out of ignorance

the not-a-racist disclaimer reminds me--boy, my mom hates rap! haha! she is very liberal etc., but the other week i was staying at her house, and G unit (w/50 cent) was on saturday night live. it wasn't that great, but it was ok. but my mom hates that shit! the look on her face was amazing.

i think it *is* fair to lump rap together. but that may be based on my interpretation of rap. which is most basically : poetry over music, with little or no focus placed on the melodic component of the vocals.

rap is *all* about the vocals, yet there is little or no melody, relatively speaking. granted, rock music can easily be melody-less as well, especially at its extremes, like death metal. hrm. rap/metal fusion. hrm.

personally, i fucking hate poetry. maybe 97% of it makes me sick. poetry is really, really not for me. which is why i don't tend to gravitate towards music based on the lyrical content.

then to go a step further and get really specific, i think this is as refined as i can get with regard to what exemplifies rap for me:

-vocals are of paramount importance
-music is very much secondary to vocals (please don't bring up the Roots again! )
-vocal melody is not intrinsically relevant
-structured and repeated groove in non-odd meter is generally the way

the only thing there that clicks for me is that the vocal melody is not key. but the other three criteria, that's where it loses me. i'm all about the music, and don't really give two shits about the vocals most of the time. and repetative groove in a non-odd meter is kinda, uh, phenomonally boring for me. granted, rap that grooves in 7/8 must exist somewhere, but it's certainly outside the box.

for these reasons, and after deliberately pointing out that rap vs non-rap is absolutely not a racial issue, i'm gonna say that RAP = CRAP with very little waffle. i gotta give mad props to all the cats out there than can freestyle, or can lay down hype beats, that shit is truly amazing and a gift (when done well), but aside from a couple of things here and there (*some* of the stuff from folks like de la soul, run dmc, public enemy, the beastie boys, all that cracker-friendly stuff which is awesome in my opinion) i consistently do not dig rap.

and then if you wanna get into the stuff that *is* more in the realm of racial bias, i fucking hate thug-ass motherfuckers, and i despise the fact that it has become so dominant in the rap mainstream (that i've seen) for the past... more and more ever since NWA maybe? Dr Dre seems to have been a big player in this trend. that shit is *disgusting* to me, because it glorifies thug life, aspiring to succeed in life through use of glocks and gats, pimpin hoes, spending fat bank on bling, all that stuff which is totally devoid of positivity or substance, it's deplorable and it's a damn shame that this type of crap is what so many kids have to idolize and aspire to. anything that glorifies being a thug is taking kids that may be waffling, or may already *be* on a bad path, and it's kicking them up to warp factor 10 in the wrong direction. *NOT ALL RAP IS LIKE THIS, AT ALL*, and i hope that i have overstated this enough, that rap and what i'm talking about are not intrinsically tied. rap is an art form (poetry + music, in my estimation). using mainstream cultural outlets to endorse a shit lifestyle is not dependent on rap, nor is rap to blame for it, rap just so happens to be the medium. so is MTV, etc. it's the *people* out to make their loot in such a destructive way, that's what i take issue with. i realize that being threatening is helpful to their capital success, but it seems like that's where this discussion typically ends, with someone saying something like "hey toomanyhelicopters, you're a racist, because you like rap just fine as long as it's docile and harmless, but as soon as it threatens you, you come down on it", some shit like that. and to that i say 'eat a dick', you get a white guy or a chinese guy or a latvian woman or a cartoon squirrel for all i care, *i don't care*, anybody who's all over the mainstream media glorifying such tremendously negative shit like guns, sexism, ignorant capitalism, all that, i'll despise them just the same. just like i would despise a musically brilliant indie band if their lyrics were pro-nazi or something equally lame.

man, i'm such a spaz.

Spaz or not, I agree with your arguement completely.

I will add that the "you don't like rap = you're racist" is the stupidest goddamn arguement ever. That kind of accusation might work when targeted at grandma or grandpa, but to an educated, progressive young adult it is a cheap shot. Should those whom do not like country music stand accused of being Ivy-League WASP elitists?

Many of the musical figures that I greatly admire reside in jazz. They are not necessarily Dave Brubeck and Cal Tjader either. The once common assumption that jazz musicians such as Louis Armstrong were "uncle Toms" is complete and utter bullshit, and anyone who would voice such charges should be ashamed. One of my personal heros in jazz is Eric Dolphy, possibly one of the finest woodwind players of his era, and an admirable example of a conciencious, gentle, articulate person unlike so many of the 'thugs' found in the rap genre and lionized by young people from all backgrounds.

Its going to be tough to get a fair argument about the merits of hip hop on the electrical forum. This board has total expertise on anything indie-rock, but some of the things outside of it become easily dismissible because they can be outside of our frame of reference. I guess what i'm saying is that it can be tough to get into something when the way you've grown up is completely different than that of the artist's. Not to say that you can't listen to something from a different place, but it definitely presents a barrier.

There are a couple of arguments here i don't agree with. Somebody said that most of rap has to do with vocals. This couldn't be farther from the truth. The 'beats' behind the rap have way much more to do with the success of the song than the lyrics themselves. Producers like the Neptunes get paid big $$ to make them, and rightfully so. Producers wouldn't become well-known if their work had little to do with the final product. I don't understand poetry either, but rap is more than just the lyric sheet; the way the words are pronounced and flow together, as well as other factors contribute to the overall performance.

Another thing is, people have said that while they enjoy some rap, such as Public Enemy or the Roots, they dislike it as a genre. That is like saying that you enjoy some John Coltrane and Count Basie, but do not like the genre of Jazz. I think if you can enjoy Public Enemy or the Roots, then you enjoy hip hop as a genre. Just because a lot of shitty mainstream rap is forced upon you, or you are disgusted by a popular subgenre of rap, is not reason to write off the entire genre. I think most of us here would describe ourselves as fans of 'rock' music. Does this mean we have to enjoy Creed, Bush, and all their shitty imitators in order to qualify as fans of the genre? fuck no. Just because 50 cent sucks doesn't mean i can't enjoy all the great stuff coming out on the Def Jux label, or the 'golden era' acts of the late 80s.

Which isn't to say that there aren't valid reasons to dislike rap or any genre. Repetitiveness, whatever. If you just dont like any of it at all, just say so. I don't like opera either.

Rap produced the finest recording that I have ever heard -- Public Enemy's "It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back". This record thrills me like almost nothing else that I have ever experienced in my life. In my mind, it is impossible to overstate the importance of this record. In my opinion, it is a landmark achievement and a milestone in art of any form.

Rap has also produced many other records that I really love and respect, as well as many records that I think are silly, incompetent, ill-conceived or just plain bad.

So, I'll say rap -- NOT CRAP. Rap changed my life in a very meaningful way, probably in the same way punk changed the lives of many people in this forum.

bradley w... i totally agree about the relevance of PE. i only wish there was a stronger presence in the rap mainstream today of forward-thinking, socially critical, yet still *positive* artists whose message promotes enlightenment (as PE did), rather than the negativity i see in folks promoting bling and thongs.

djanes1... i think maybe we're just looking at it differently. the way i'm seeing it, there are not 10 acts out there called "produced by dr dre", there are people called "xzibit" and "eminem" and such. the beats are necessary and are important, but i tend to think it's a case of the same thing as what i've seen with pop music, namely, the music is there to give the vocalist something to sing over. average joe doesn't even have the ability to identify the instruments used in the music, or go any further with the music than the ability to bounce along with it, but he can hum the vocal melody or even sing it if he knows the words. i think this is a truth, a generalization that holds true with the majority of folks if you take a random sample. here, you're gonna get the perspectives of people who can't even listen to some albums because they're put off by how bad the stereo imaging is, so that whole "vocals first" thing will be much less likely to apply. so i certainly agree with you that we all come to the table with our life experiences ingrained in us more or less. of course, my parents don't listen to math rock, not even close, nor do we have any musical tastes in common, really, aside from maybe some beatles stuff or most of what came out of motown. so i don't know how far i'd wanna go with the 'different backgrounds' thing. i mean, my mom loves diana ross, but i would venture to guess that the two of them did not grow up in a remarkably similar fashion. i can't know for sure.

as far as the big-name producers thing goes, i'm just gonna say that many folks are gonna be able to recognize the name "eminem", or "snoop dog" for example, and many less folks will identify "the Neptunes". granted people will identify Dr Dre, who is arguably the biggest-name producer out there (especially to the marginally-informed like myself) but even that probably stems from his success with NWA and really with the success of The Chronic and all that followed.

also, i never said that rap was primarily about the words. i said it's primarily about the vocals. it may have been better for me to have used the word "vocalist" in place of "vocals". that is certainly in line with the point i was making. the tone of someone's voice can be what sets them apart, the use of rythmn, even the use of stuff like after every line, screaming the word "whuh?!?". i don't know who busta rhymes is because of his lyrics, i don't even know what the hell his lyrics are most of the time. but i know the sound of his voice, and i know how he looks, and i know his gestures. and, i might add, off the top of my head, i haven't the slightest idea how any of his beats go or who produces them. i realize that my personal experience doesn't merit a generalization all on its own, but i'd venture to guess that it's the same for plenty of other people who would even consider themselves fans. i don't think i ever even implied that the specific words were the key, so much as the man on the mic. like how the fresh prince overshadowed dj jazzy whats-his-name, or how more people are probably gonna recognize chuck d or flavor flav than terminator x, or how the groups were called "run dmc" and "salt n pepa" and not "jam master jay" or "spinderella".

re what you said "I think if you can enjoy Public Enemy or the Roots, then you enjoy hip hop as a genre." i completely disagree. let's ignore the fact that the rules of logic mean the statement pretty much needs to have the word "all" in it, since nobody was ever talking about "all" in this discussion so much as "most". that aside, it seems like you're saying if i *only* like PE, and i actively can't stand 10,000 other rap groups i've heard, then i still like rap as a genre. this is absurd. i can like one song by one artist, or ten songs by one artist, or ten artists out of a thousand, or 80% of the artists i hear... these are all different scenarios. just because i like one specific pair of shoes doesn't mean i like all shoes, or even that i really like shoes in general.

i actually lived in a recording studio for over a year, and the client base was primarily from chicago's hiphop underground. i got to meet some cool people, and some dicks, i got to hear some cool songs, and some lame ones. i got to play on an album by E.Cilla, and work with guys like Panic, and DJ PNS (i'm thinking these are all guys that somebody who was following chicago hiphop in the late 90's would be familiar with). there's even a song out there (called "the ska machine") on a ska compilation... ( http://www.jumpuprecords.com/jump100.html ) my friend wrote the guitar and drums, i added the bass, and then we got Rhymefest to lay down some vocals. and you'll see on the disc that the name of the group is Rhymefest. that's just how it works. people care more about the man on the mic. anyways, please don't assume that my opinion about rap as a genre is based solely on "shitty mainstream rap", because it's slightly more informed than that, though i admit i haven't put in extensive time researching all rap acts so i can find more that i like. because i don't get into rap so much, in general. also, mainstream rap has presented me with some stuff i enjoy, too, i don't think i ever said that all mainstream rap is bad. but yeah, if i was really informed, i probably would've known before five minutes ago that N.E.R.D. and the Neptunes are the same folks. if N.E.R.D. was pop mainstream, instead of indie mainstream, i'd probably already have known that. because of friends of mine, i've heard of (and heard) N.E.R.D. , though i never heard of the Neptunes.

and your postulation that if you like "rock" music, that would somehow mean that you are then obligated to like *ALL* rock bands is kinda silly, too. i don't even think this would be possible for most people to do. nobody (i hope) is saying that ALL rap is crap, or that ALL rap is not crap. really, both of those positions would end up being indefensible, and anybody with enough free time, motivation, and skill could actually put together a rap group that would disprove either of those statements to the person who made it. obviously it would be much easier to disprove "all rap is not crap". that'd take about ten minutes. saying "all rap is crap" would be much harder to invalidate, though it could be done. it would just require determining and focusing the project on the specific likes of the person making the statement.

and your postulation that if you like "rock" music, that would somehow mean that you are then obligated to like *ALL* rock bands is kinda silly, too. i don't even think this would be possible for most people to do. nobody (i hope) is saying that ALL rap is crap, or that ALL rap is not crap. really, both of those positions would end up being indefensible, and anybody with enough free time, motivation, and skill could actually put together a rap group that would disprove either of those statements to the person who made it. obviously it would be much easier to disprove "all rap is not crap". that'd take about ten minutes. saying "all rap is crap" would be much harder to invalidate, though it could be done. it would just require determining and focusing the project on the specific likes of the person making the statement.

read what i said again.

I think most of us here would describe ourselves as fans of 'rock' music. Does this mean we have to enjoy Creed, Bush, and all their shitty imitators in order to qualify as fans of the genre? fuck no. Just because 50 cent sucks doesn't mean i can't enjoy all the great stuff coming out on the Def Jux label, or the 'golden era' acts of the late 80s.

What i said was that it is understood that liking a genre can liking some of it, not all of it. you can't write off rock music because of post-grunge bands, and you can't write off hip hop because of gangsta rap. so i guess we're in agreement there.

Also, I consider Public Enemy and the Roots to be hip hop music. If you are enjoying Public Enemy or the Roots, then you are enjoying hip hop music. It sounds pretty logical to me.

aw hell, i apologize. i clearly misunderstood what you were saying with the rock genre example. i completely agree that you don't have to like everything a genre offers to like the genre in its totality. again, sorry about that.

i only wish there was a stronger presence in the rap mainstream today of forward-thinking, socially critical, yet still *positive* artists whose message promotes enlightenment (as PE did), rather than the negativity i see in folks promoting bling and thongs.

1. why do people expect 'forward-thinking, socially critical, yet still *positive* artists' from rap music? would you expect this from rock and roll? are the sex pistols or the stooges 'positive?'

it's fine with me that 50 cent gets shot all the time and used to be a crack dealer. what the fuck do i care? 'in da club' is no worse for it, any more than krs-one's recent output is made any better by his edutainmentismism.

2. PE promoted a lot of things, but enlightenment was promoted mainly in the service of suggesting that class war might be a good idea. which was great. since it's music, it didn't incite class war, and in the end everyone got off on it.

also, the hook is the thing with rap. it's all hooks. some of them are vocal rhythms, some of them are beats, some of them are instrumental squiggles. but if you listen to hip hop radio for twenty minutes, you'll turn it off with something in your head that will stay with you for a while.

like this:

what's the hook gon' be
uh oh
i don't need no fuckin' hook on this beat
all i need is the track in the background
my headphones on
and the shit goin' round and round

i think that's a murphy lee single i heard a couple times