Hows it going everyone. Have to say firsy and foremost that this is a great forum. Lots of good info on here. Now, the question that i have is in reguards to the positioning, compression, etc on the drum overheads. For a while now I had stuck with a pair of samson co1's on a stereo bar in an x/y fashion. The sound was alright but nothing that really made me happy. It was positioned about a foot in front of the drummer at a height of three feet above the toms. Now what I am experimenting with is a pair of shure ksm27's. I really do love using this mic especially with miking guitar cabs as well as vocals. With the great result I got from those I figured they would work great as a drum overhead. Boy was I wrong. I started out with just 1 positioned above the whole kit. Im having a huge problem with picking up the batter bass drum head. Its reall muddying up the whole kit together as one. After i knew that the mono overhead wasnt going to fly, I tried a spaced pair. One on the left at about 6-7 feet and the same on the right. Both aimed at the cymbals respectivly. Now it sounds better, but im just not getting a good sound. Is there something else I should try? I feel that the kit itself is a little too strong in the overheads, especially that bass batter head. Im pretty much at wits end so anything will help. Also, how does everyone feel about compression on the overheads. Im using a little bit like a 2:1 ratio with a pretty fast attack and slower release. Right now im using a threshold of -10 but im not sure if thats good. Im just looking to tame the cymbals a little bit. One last question is how do I set the pre on the overheads? Do I just set it just as I would say a dynamic snare mic?

I usually position my overheads in an X/Y pattern, about 6-7 feet from the floor, above the center of the kit, just about even with the outer rim of the kick. I've never used compression on OHs and have generally been happy with the results.

As far as setting the pre's?? Depends on what you're using.

What kind of room are you recording in? Is it treated?

Cheers.

well for right now, i'm using the pre's of a behringer 2442 mixer for the overheads which is then subgrouped down with the toms to a korg d1600. I did experiment with subbing the overheads alone through a compressor on input, but It just doesn't seem right. I am comparing a lot of my recordings back and forth between other metal bands out there and it seems to me that they are compressed a little bit. If anyone has ever heard opeth, that is a sound i'm going for. The room that i'm in is about 15x25 with about 12 foot ceilings. The back wall and ceiling is brick covered completely with mattress padding. probably noth the greatest for isolation, but it works. I will try to get a sound clip on soon so you can hear. I last thing, I am using a 4 channel gate inserted for each tom. Would it work if I subbgrouped them to 1 channel on the gate on input?

with regards to overhead compression- you've got it all backwards.
do a slow attack and fast release. the transient (initial hit of the drum) needs to come through the compressor to make drums sound violent!

i usually find 2:1 ratio for drums (especially metal) is pretty useless. so is having a -10 threshold. low ratios and thresholds and slow releases just make stuff sound like the Beatles- which i never want and you probably don't want!

try setting your overhead compressors more like limiters.
threshold @ 0- +5 with a 6:1 or 8:1 ratio with a slow attack and quick release. give it a shot!

also, metal is all about the listener having headphones and air drumming- so drummer perspective is usually more on target. try the overheads over the drummer's head, or slightly behind, or even as a spaced pair about where his/her ears would be.

have fun!

with regards to overhead compression- you've got it all backwards.
do a slow attack and fast release. the transient (initial hit of the drum) needs to come through the compressor to make drums sound violent!

i usually find 2:1 ratio for drums (especially metal) is pretty useless. so is having a -10 threshold. low ratios and thresholds and slow releases just make stuff sound like the Beatles- which i never want and you probably don't want!

try setting your overhead compressors more like limiters.
threshold @ 0- +5 with a 6:1 or 8:1 ratio with a slow attack and quick release. give it a shot!

also, metal is all about the listener having headphones and air drumming- so drummer perspective is usually more on target. try the overheads over the drummer's head, or slightly behind, or even as a spaced pair about where his/her ears would be.

have fun!

now im kind of curious. If I were to do a slower attack with a faster release wouldnt that give my the cymbal pumping effect? I would think that if I were to ride on the crash it would start to give me a strange sound. I will definetly give it a try though. Also, if I were to go ahead and set the overheads above the drummers head, would it be best to stick with an xy aimed towards the drums? Or maybe aimed more towards the cymbals? Its a very wide spanning drum kit so thats where im having problems getting everything to sound evenly in the mix (as far as cymbals)

morze wrote:with regards to overhead compression- you've got it all backwards.

Nothing here is backwards. Compressors do different things with different settings.

Using a slow attack and fast release will in fact cause a lot of breathing and pumping, generally creating an "effect", particularly at higher ratios. This will also "turn up" the toms, kick drum and especially the snare in your overheads which in some cases can really fuck up the drum sound when blended in with closer mics.. I find that I rarely (never) use this effect 'cause it doesn't sound like drums, it sounds like crazy nutty compression. Using this method with low ratios and light compression may help the cymbals sustain a little better, but I find it still sounds unnatural, and still brings up the relative volume of the drums in the
overheads.

Using a moderately slow attack and a slow release can help tame loud cymbals and increase the relative volume of the drums without sounding too whacky.

Using a very fast attack and a fast release can effectively tame an overwhelming snare drum in the overheads, in turn rasing the relative volume of the cymbals. This method is called "ducking", and is one of many wonderful things I learned from sitting in on sessions at EA.

Often times the snare drum is by far the loudest sound in the overheads, which causes one to mix the overheads low so as not to occupy the entire mix with a blaring snare drum. As a result, you have very quiet cymbals and a lack of realism to the sound of the kit. By using a modest compression ratio (between 2:1 and 4:1), a very fast attack and fast release you can effectively "duck" the snare drum without seriously fucking up the natrual sound of the cymbals. While this eliminates the transient attack of the snare from your overhead microphones, your close mic on the snare should still have plenty of attack, and usually ends up sounding clearer because there is no longer a delayed attack from the overheads masking it.

By messing around with the threshold, attack and release times of the compressor you can "turn down" the snare in your overheads (one of the few places that an RNC [standard mode] truly shines). By adjusting the threshold you can find a spot where the compressor is triggered into gain reduction with every snare hit and nothing else. In my experience there have been instances where the snare drum has triggered up to 8 dB of compression without the comp being triggered by any other sounds in the overheads. You should be careful with your metering though, since such fast attack and release times may not translate well to some meters. Even though the meter might say you're only comping 1-3 dB, you may actually be comping 10 dB. So it's important to just listen to what the compressor is doing rather than rely solely on the meters.

This technique can be very useful in increasing your overhead/cymbal volume without increasing the sound of the snare drum.

mtar

not so much a pumping sound- but more the illusion of a drumkit being played really loud. if you're on this board- then you're probably a fan of Steve's drum sounds- and to me, the success of his drum sounds lie in their extreme realism and the illusion that a really LOUD drumkit is coming through your little stereo speakers.
when adjusting limiters- i always try to imagine this sound:
you know when a drummer hits a snare and you're right next the kit?
the snare attack makes it in to your ears and then your ears kind of close up? that's the sound i'm usually going for. that's the sound of a LOUD snare. that's what i think of when i hear the Neurosis snare sound, for example.
fast attacks and slow releases just give you that annoying 311 or Chili Peppers "biong" snare sound- which never sounds tough- it just sounds sissy!
also- when i say slow- i mean like .5-.8 of a second- just enough for the initial hit to get through. it varies widely though with the player, the drum, etc. you just have to fiddle, listen, fiddle, etc.
yes, if you do "pump" them too much (with too slow an attack and too fast a release) you'll get that 80's/Rod Stewart/Adult Contemporary sound. and with too slow a release- you'll get cymbals that ring forever (which can be good or bad)- but worse, you could get cymbals that raise in volume drastically as they decay (which is pretty annoying!). i drove myself crazy with this when i started out!

again, with placement, the key is to experiment.
while x/y gives you less phase problems, if you are micing an elaborate kit, i usually get better results with a spaced pair. the stereo image is way better and you pick up everything more evenly- because the mics are closer to the quieter cymbals/toms. use a measuring tape if necessary to space the mics, it works.

also, being a drummer, i can never stress the importance of the "John Bonham Technique"- whereas if some part of your just isn't coming through- then just HIT IT HARDER!

hope that helps.

morze wrote:you know when a drummer hits a snare and you're right next the kit?
the snare attack makes it in to your ears and then your ears kind of close up? that's the sound i'm usually going for. that's the sound of a LOUD snare. that's what i think of when i hear the Neurosis snare sound, for example.
fast attacks and slow releases just give you that annoying 311 or Chili Peppers "biong" snare sound- which never sounds tough- it just sounds sissy!

Unless using minimalist microphoning techiques, I think that an "in your face" snare sound is best achieved with a close snare mic, not with overhead mics. When close microphoning a snare, a slower release and faster decay (adjusted to suit the drum and taste of the drummer for resonance) do in fact work very well.

I am quite sure that Steve's drum sounds have very little to do with how he compresses the overheads, and everything to do with the drums themselves, the drummer, the room and the mic placement.

good point.

the way i usually do it is kind of a "everything-working-together-to-create-one-thing" kind of thing. i get alot of snare sound out of the overheads- and ambient mics- and i think the way that the wave travels between close to overhead to ambient (and the way that it hits a limiter at each stop in the journey) all kind work together to form the THHHWAACKKKK!!!!
that i'm usually looking for.

in mean, the drums/drummer thing is a no-brainer- which is why i mentioned just hitting something louder etc. i just figured that compression was what was in question- so i just offered a tip on what usually makes me smile compression-wise.

but again, what works for me- may be total hell for someone else.