I've been mulling it over today and though I think Al has put out much more hideously embarrassing music (I'd just about be able to pull an album's worth of decent material from the Bush trilogy, but the last 4 have been very bad indeed), I sort of begrudgingly respect that he has carried on writing, recording and touring. He's always been a carny figure, but I can see that his wife/ manager has been instrumental in a lot of the more cringe worthy business decisions.

While the last 2 Jane's records have been passable alt-radio-rock, the way they've gone about it (esp fucking up the reunion run w/ Avery, who posted a very long interview about his last Jane's experience) is way, way more gross, esp Perry, who is the maddest individual here, far beyond the jaded cynicism of Navarro and Al.

From the public evidence available so far I'd definitely vote Perry the shittiest character of the bunch. There was a scathing Avery video interview from several years back that had a lot of bad history being told.

But then I only know this stuff from the internet, I bet a lot of FM's have plenty of second-hand experience to (probably not) share.

Wood Goblin wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:49 am As for which band has done more to ruin its reputation, I agree that neither had a reputation to be ruined in the first place. For both, there was a period when many of us were simply ignorant of who they really were, which turned out to be “narcissists who like drugs.”

I'd say they both shifted the commercial paradigm of the music biz as much as Nirvana did in that era - and while I was confident they wouldn't get a great reception here, I do find it interesting how far their star has fallen compared to say, Faith No More & NIN.

tommy wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:57 am I feel like Jane's Addition was always kind of media whore wannabes. Manufactured LA scene band.

JA manufactured? How so? IIRC that was not the case at all. They just got popular by hard work (both in terms of music and image).
If anyone "manufactured" them, it was them.

Who has fallen lower? Probably Ministry.

Who would I rather listen to? Probably Ministry, esp up through "Psalm 69," including their goth/new wave stuff.

At their peak Ministry had Bill Rieflin, Chris Connelly, and Martin Atkins.

Seeing Jane's Addiction before they got massive was one of my favorite shows.

I'd throw on old Ministry before throwing on old Jane's Addiction - a much deeper well.

Deconstruction wasn't terrible; Porno for Pyros was bland; but most Ministry side-projects were on point.

"Corrosion" is better than the best Jane's Addiction song.

Ministry had higher highs - both underground and mainstream - and therefore had the hardest fall. But did they really?

FM Boombats shared this recently and I ain't mad at it.

enframed wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:04 pm

tommy wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:57 am I feel like Jane's Addition was always kind of media whore wannabes. Manufactured LA scene band.

JA manufactured? How so?

Oh, they created themselves. I didn't mean otherwise. I guess what I meant was they've always come off to me as: "Okay, I'll be the egomaniac drama guy ex-prostitute leader. We need a metal guitar guy. Check. We need a sorta indie/college radio bass player guy. Check. How about a jam band drummer? Got it. We're so Hollywood!" I dunno. Something about it all just seemed a little too designer.

M.H wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:10 am

Wood Goblin wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:49 am As for which band has done more to ruin its reputation, I agree that neither had a reputation to be ruined in the first place. For both, there was a period when many of us were simply ignorant of who they really were, which turned out to be “narcissists who like drugs.”

I'd say they both shifted the commercial paradigm of the music biz as much as Nirvana did in that era - and while I was confident they wouldn't get a great reception here, I do find it interesting how far their star has fallen compared to say, Faith No More & NIN.

If we’re talking strictly about the music, then I see what you’re saying. I don’t know anything about JA’s new music, but Ministry’s sounds like the product of people who haven’t figured out how to age. Trent Reznor isn’t my thing either, but at least he seems to be trying to make music that reflects who he is today.

Outside of the music, well, I remember reading on the old forum about how poisonous Al was back in his heyday—that he would show up at a club with his steampunk junkie entourage and suck all the fun out of the room. You go there to have fun or see music and end up having to contend with sycophantic junkies shooting up in the bathroom stalls. (Maybe I’m misremembering these stories?)

Jane's Addiction got to be truly silly and embarassing, but I always hated Al Jourgensen, and he's done not a thing to change my mind over the past two decades. I feel no desire to punch out anyone in Jane's Addiction, so I suppose Ministry is the "winner" here.

Man-in-his-60's-trying-harder-to-cling-to-youth/relevance-dome: Mall Goth Pin Cushion Al vs. Plastic Perry.

Krev wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:29 pm Man-in-his-60's-trying-harder-to-cling-to-youth/relevance-dome: Mall Goth Pin Cushion Al vs. Plastic Perry.

See, I kinda feel sorry for Al in this respect (bear with me) because he did try to turn Ministry into a brand to cash in on all the mainstream dross he inspired way, WAY too late... if he'd made a Houses of the Mole type record in 96 he'd have seriously cashed in (and KMFDM et al would have sold a hell of a lot less)... I also get the feeling that he burned so many bridges in the late 90s that he's unable to really head down the money pit / cynical biz road that Jane's been travelling on since that first reunion tour in 97. But Al keeps on trying...