I think even take-homes and coding tests are stupid. As well as not being accurate, do carpenters get asked to build something or architects have to draw up plans before getting hired?
I'd rather give a sample of previous work and discuss it with them (they have to trust I did it, same way I have to trust the company not to lie about the job and how they operate), except they don't want to waste their time trying to understand some new code...

If you are going to make someone do a take home, you should set the number of hours it'll take and pay them. I've only ever had one company do that, and they were in Germany.

andyman wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:06 pm I think even take-homes and coding tests are stupid.

Aside from maybe recent grads or candidates with nothing to show but a Github page, I agree. It's a little insulting to have real work experience with references to back that up and be asked to do crossword puzzles, essentially.

At the end of the day, whether a company has 3 or 15 rounds of interviews and assessments, they don't know how someone will work out until they're actually hired. It's all a false sense of controlling the unknown and a way to pat themselves on the back. Most of these jobs are not that special. Any reasonable candidate will perform just fine as long as they aren't thrown into an impossible situation.

cakes wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:47 am

LuciousSandwich wrote: Today's suspicious recruiter email:

"Hello, [ my name- redacted].
I am a Recruiter in the Human Resources Department at CME Group. We are actively seeking talented leaders to join our team and drive the growth and development of our organization. If you are interested in learning more, please leave your phone number and one of our Vice Presidents will contact you.

We cordially invite"

CME Group seems to be involved in derivatives trading , something I know nothing about. The recruiter's profile has 3 connections and alleges that he attended Harvard. He doesn't even ask for a resume.

CME Group is a very influential financial exchange in Chicago. Their office is right long the river near Monroe/Canal.

I've never has a recruiter ask me for a phone number for a VP to contact you. And funny enough, I literally just finished required cybersecurity monthly training and this sounds exactly like a scam. Never in my entire life have I ever had a recruiter ask me for my phone number so a VP could call me. It's very unprofessional, especially coming from CME Group. If you even care, I would contact CME and let them know there's a scammer out there.

I just blocked the sender and reported him to LinkedIn. I spent a lot of time evaluating phishing emails at my last job. It's amazing how little effort some of these people make.

As a EE/HW engineer, technical interviews at a whiteboard are absolutely a thing, and totally nerve-wracking, so a live coding test doesn't sound that strange to me. I got absolutely grilled by a grizzled old engineer at my first interview out of grad school. Wanting me to walk through Fourier and LaPlace transforms in front of him, among other things. Something I'd never have to do on the job. I thought for sure that I had bombed it.

I got the position, and he and I actually got along really well after that. He told me later that he wanted to see how my mind worked more than anything, and he had advocated for me to be hired.

I've been on the other side of that equation as well, grilling potential candidates on technical topics. I'm way more interested in how you handle the pressure and the types of questions you ask and knowing your own limitations than whether you get the right answer. There are lots of people out there who will play gotcha and try to make you feel like a deer in headlights, but those guys tend to be shitty at their job and jerks in general anyway.

So, I got past all my previous interviews, but now for both jobs, I have more interviews. OMG, this is getting silly. One is to talk to the CEO. I get that they want the engineers to be in on the mission of the company, but if they know they want to hire me and I know I would work there, this is just abusing our time. The other one, I think the recruiter messed up. I have a systems design and a cultural interview. I get it, these places are of high quality and have high standards for engineers. I'm willing to go through it, because the payoff is worth it.

I disagree that take homes are stupid. I think showing some technical prowess, especially for more senior positions, is required. I just disagree on how some people go about it.

I was taking an online course the other day and the instructor in the video said something offhand and profound. He said, "if you want to work at a company of high quality, you just need to learn the secret handshake." That handshake is the technical assessment. It's understandable that some software companies have a more rigorous assessment than others. I've worked in both types, and I would say that the more rigorous ones definitely have a more elite engineering team in comparison. Not everyone company needs to be elite, though. But, it's ultimately your choice on how you want to conduct your career and choose where to look for work.

Nate Dort wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:52 pm I got the position, and he and I actually got along really well after that. He told me later that he wanted to see how my mind worked more than anything, and he had advocated for me to be hired.

This is absolutely the case the majority of the time. If you can show how to go about solving an issue, especially one you don't know very well, it speaks volumes. If you get flustered and are unable to get past basic concepts, obviously that's not a good look. I don't find the assessments I've been given that hard, but I generally flub when I'm not keeping it together and start confusing myself. That's the trick to doing well at an assessment. The stakes get higher the more senior position, for good reason. I don't think anyone's going to expect a lot from entry or mid level.

I don't like assessments where they try to trick you. That is setting up an unrealistic situation. I recently did have one of those and I'm glad I didn't pass.

cakes wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 10:18 am So, I got past all my previous interviews, but now for both jobs, I have more interviews. OMG, this is getting silly. One is to talk to the CEO. I get that they want the engineers to be in on the mission of the company, but if they know they want to hire me and I know I would work there, this is just abusing our time. The other one, I think the recruiter messed up. I have a systems design and a cultural interview. I get it, these places are of high quality and have high standards for engineers. I'm willing to go through it, because the payoff is worth it.

It is silly, but "we want you to talk to the CEO" is generally a good sign, right? Certainly not a bad one.

Anonymous37 wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:12 am

cakes wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 10:18 am So, I got past all my previous interviews, but now for both jobs, I have more interviews. OMG, this is getting silly. One is to talk to the CEO. I get that they want the engineers to be in on the mission of the company, but if they know they want to hire me and I know I would work there, this is just abusing our time. The other one, I think the recruiter messed up. I have a systems design and a cultural interview. I get it, these places are of high quality and have high standards for engineers. I'm willing to go through it, because the payoff is worth it.

It is silly, but "we want you to talk to the CEO" is generally a good sign, right? Certainly not a bad one.

I don't see this as a bad sign, to be honest. This is an ed-tech company, and the woman who started it is an educator who truly cares about education and her company does some really remarkable things to improve the education for students who are falling behind. I've read articles about them and watched interviews with the CEO and other news reports from local school districts. I think it's just her doing her due diligence and I'm totally fine with that. Every engineer I've interviewed with feels very strongly about the impact of education, lots of them are parents themselves. I know someone who works there too. I just get a sense that they are not only looking for high quality engineers, but also people who want to work in ed-tech, because it is very unsexy area of tech.

Anonymous37 wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:12 am It is silly, but "we want you to talk to the CEO" is generally a good sign, right? Certainly not a bad one.

In this case probably yes, but I've definitely had interview stages that kept moving up and up in rank where it seemed like a formality where I still didn't get the job. Some companies really do put multiple candidates through all that, which certainly isn't an efficient use of their own time but *shrug*.

penningtron wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:26 am

Anonymous37 wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:12 am It is silly, but "we want you to talk to the CEO" is generally a good sign, right? Certainly not a bad one.

In this case probably yes, but I've definitely had interview stages that kept moving up and up in rank where it seemed like a formality where I still didn't get the job. Some companies really do put multiple candidates through all that, which certainly isn't an efficient use of their own time but *shrug*.

You literally get to the final boss and receive a no, that is a waste of everyone's time.

This is just a formality, which was basically stated to me by the VP of engineering. I am pretty sure I'm going to get an offer, unless I somehow bomb this formal interview by saying something egregious.

Now, let me tell you of a time I actually did this. I call it my George Costanza moment. I had an interview at a really great company, awesome engineering team and lots office perks. I nailed the cultural and technical interviews. The last interview I had, everyone just loved me, so they offered to have drinks in the "kitchen area" (which was basically the layout of a fancy food court with a self-serve bar in the middle, complete with four beer taps). They keep pouring the drinks, we're all having a great time. They're saying how much I'd love the CEO, he's cool as shit and all that. Well, the CEO comes in, he's pretty chill, pours himself a beer and is chatting up with everyone, which seemed unusual because CEOs generally don't seem to fraternize with the engineers like that. Anyway, he starts to ask a question about how a surgeon could operate on a baby, because they are so small. To which, I added, "it's because they have such small hands." Totally bombed. Everyone's faces sort of went pale. He smiled very politely and said his goodbyes. Someone leaned over to me as he walked out and said his 6 mo old son was going into open-heart surgery the next day. Well, next day for me rolls around and I get an email from the recruiter saying that they've decided to go with someone else with some polite excuse that basically said, "you done fucked up that one."

hahah.. fuuuck. I had one of those moments maybe 6 months ago..

I had a Teams interview set up with the department manager and the test lead I'd be working under. I could tell right away the DM was a quirky character, kinda looked like a wizard. Test lead introduces herself first, then the DM gives a winking look, and jokes to his colleague in this ridiculous British accent "oy, so whot are we gonna do to put this goyy through the ringah?" I smiled, played along with the "bit", probably sounding like a 3rd rate Ringo impersonator saying something like "whatevah you think you're gonna do from the other side 'o the pond!" He got slightly more serious and said "ah no mate, I'm working out of Florida."

Once he starts describing the nature of the team's work a bit more I realized that was his actual voice, so I had opened up the interview basically making fun of his accent. OOPS. The interview ended up being pretty friendly overall, I got some positive feedback that led me to believe they may not have even picked up on it or cared, but internally for the rest of that interview I was like "FUCK FUCK FUCK WHY DID I DO THAT!?"