Ruffian wrote:I don't wanna really touch the argument about animals being slaves. I think my horses are pretty happy. I also think that if horses were reasoners, they'd pick a lot of lives over the racehorse life.
There is no argument about horses being slaves. I used a lazy analogy, Bob jumped all over it and created a debate that doesn't exist in this discussion. Horses, like dogs, are very happy to work. My issue was that racehorses seem to be pushed beyond their limits for no other reason than greed.
Anyway, thanks for the posts. Very interesting.
Statistics: Posted by nihil_Archive — Wed May 07, 2008 12:44 am
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TB, looked sound, harness marks - $350
3 BIG untouched Percheron broodmares - $275 a piece to the killer
Very nicely built and nicely colored Paint weanling - $100
Not as nicely built or marked Paint weanling, burrs in mane and tail - $20
BIG dark red dun QH, lots of white, sound but we couldn't touch him earlier - $350 to the killer
Cute little sorrel QH type weanling - $100
Pair of large grade ponies, cute, couldn't catch them earlier - $150 pair to the killer
Thin old sorrel mare - $40 to the killer
Big bay QH, we caught him earlier and he wasn't broke - $600
QH type weanling, sorrel - $60
Quiet teenage QH - $150
Very sweet and gentle QH mare that we caught and rode earlier, lame in her hip - $50 to the killer
Scrawny but nicely marked grulla paint, good size, would have bid but we couldn't catch him earlier - $40 to the killer
Several Belgians in a row, all sound, we rode a few, they went for $200-250 to the killer, one went for $300 to the Amish
Lame old Standardbred - $150 to the killer
Super sweet Standardbred, harness marks, looked like he'd been through a WAR, lame on all four legs, scrapes everywhere - $100 to the killer
Standardbred - $275 to the killer
UGLY but DUN donkey, really overweight and kicked the shit out of everything - $160
Standardbred, harness marks - $250 to the killer
Cute QH mare, we rode her earlier, gentle and sweet, bay, sound - $225
Standardbred, big - $300 to the killer
TB, neurological or vision problems, cute chestnut - $50 to the killer
Young Haflinger, under 2, we couldn't get near him earlier but he was cute - $30 to the killer
Standardbred, lame - $30 to the killer
QH type - $125
Appy.. (that's all I wrote??) - $275
Really loud, stout Appy gelding, good looking, tried to rear when we rode him and beat the shit out of the other horses in the pen - $40 to the killer
Pair of teenage grey Percheron geldings, scared to death to be there, huddled in the back of the kill pen and defended each other - $60 FOR THE PAIR to the killer
The thickest Belgian gelding I've ever seen (he looked like a cartoon horse), really quiet, we rode him, under 10, had an infection and swelling in a rear leg but was sound on it - $225 to the killer
Standardbred, harness marks - $250 to the killer
HUGE Clyde cross mare, hadn't been ridden in three years but rode and drove, we rode her around and she was quiet, bay, lots of chrome, 12 - $600
Draft mule, baby of the clyde mare, 4 years old, never been touched, close to 17 hands - $250
4 year old paint mare, supposedly broke to ride but spooked when we tried to get on her, nice markings, 3-400 pounds underweight - $100
Paint mare's ugly ass untouched weanling - $30
BIG nice Canadian TBs with papers, 5 year old mare, was at the track last spring, sound - $375
other TB mare, 13 year old, momma to above - $300
Four of the sweetest TBs, they were all love, straight from the track. One was lame in the shoulder, one in the hip, and one was lame on all four legs. The fourth was sound. They all went for under $300, two went to the killer.
Big grey mare, supposedly ex-polo pony, $200 to the killer
Our purchases:
Cole, young QH/TB?? bay, quiet and sweet, good weight, wasn't ridden in but they said 'broke to ride' (haha) - $135
Blue, 6-8 year old palomino pony gelding, lots of chrome, blue eyes, really skinny, wormy, and covered in rainrot. This guy doesn't have great conformation (OK it's horrible) but he was SO SWEET and quiet in the pen, we figured with some weight and little bit of finishing he'll be a cute kid's pony. - $90
Isaac, bay QH, late teens. This guy is also SUPER quiet, he is skinny and really wormy, but a very nice little horse. - $10
Polly, aged black pony mare. We felt so sorry for this girl, she deserves to be a kid's Christmas present. Absolutely bombproof, and even at this age, sound!! - $30 (Pictured)
Layla, teenage grey Arab cross. This girl we saw right at the last minute. She's tall and sound, very prissy but a nice little ride. - $85
3 BIG untouched Percheron broodmares - $275 a piece to the killer
Very nicely built and nicely colored Paint weanling - $100
Not as nicely built or marked Paint weanling, burrs in mane and tail - $20
BIG dark red dun QH, lots of white, sound but we couldn't touch him earlier - $350 to the killer
Cute little sorrel QH type weanling - $100
Pair of large grade ponies, cute, couldn't catch them earlier - $150 pair to the killer
Thin old sorrel mare - $40 to the killer
Big bay QH, we caught him earlier and he wasn't broke - $600
QH type weanling, sorrel - $60
Quiet teenage QH - $150
Very sweet and gentle QH mare that we caught and rode earlier, lame in her hip - $50 to the killer
Scrawny but nicely marked grulla paint, good size, would have bid but we couldn't catch him earlier - $40 to the killer
Several Belgians in a row, all sound, we rode a few, they went for $200-250 to the killer, one went for $300 to the Amish
Lame old Standardbred - $150 to the killer
Super sweet Standardbred, harness marks, looked like he'd been through a WAR, lame on all four legs, scrapes everywhere - $100 to the killer
Standardbred - $275 to the killer
UGLY but DUN donkey, really overweight and kicked the shit out of everything - $160
Standardbred, harness marks - $250 to the killer
Cute QH mare, we rode her earlier, gentle and sweet, bay, sound - $225
Standardbred, big - $300 to the killer
TB, neurological or vision problems, cute chestnut - $50 to the killer
Young Haflinger, under 2, we couldn't get near him earlier but he was cute - $30 to the killer
Standardbred, lame - $30 to the killer
QH type - $125
Appy.. (that's all I wrote??) - $275
Really loud, stout Appy gelding, good looking, tried to rear when we rode him and beat the shit out of the other horses in the pen - $40 to the killer
Pair of teenage grey Percheron geldings, scared to death to be there, huddled in the back of the kill pen and defended each other - $60 FOR THE PAIR to the killer
The thickest Belgian gelding I've ever seen (he looked like a cartoon horse), really quiet, we rode him, under 10, had an infection and swelling in a rear leg but was sound on it - $225 to the killer
Standardbred, harness marks - $250 to the killer
HUGE Clyde cross mare, hadn't been ridden in three years but rode and drove, we rode her around and she was quiet, bay, lots of chrome, 12 - $600
Draft mule, baby of the clyde mare, 4 years old, never been touched, close to 17 hands - $250
4 year old paint mare, supposedly broke to ride but spooked when we tried to get on her, nice markings, 3-400 pounds underweight - $100
Paint mare's ugly ass untouched weanling - $30
BIG nice Canadian TBs with papers, 5 year old mare, was at the track last spring, sound - $375
other TB mare, 13 year old, momma to above - $300
Four of the sweetest TBs, they were all love, straight from the track. One was lame in the shoulder, one in the hip, and one was lame on all four legs. The fourth was sound. They all went for under $300, two went to the killer.
Big grey mare, supposedly ex-polo pony, $200 to the killer
Our purchases:
Cole, young QH/TB?? bay, quiet and sweet, good weight, wasn't ridden in but they said 'broke to ride' (haha) - $135
Blue, 6-8 year old palomino pony gelding, lots of chrome, blue eyes, really skinny, wormy, and covered in rainrot. This guy doesn't have great conformation (OK it's horrible) but he was SO SWEET and quiet in the pen, we figured with some weight and little bit of finishing he'll be a cute kid's pony. - $90
Isaac, bay QH, late teens. This guy is also SUPER quiet, he is skinny and really wormy, but a very nice little horse. - $10
Polly, aged black pony mare. We felt so sorry for this girl, she deserves to be a kid's Christmas present. Absolutely bombproof, and even at this age, sound!! - $30 (Pictured)
Layla, teenage grey Arab cross. This girl we saw right at the last minute. She's tall and sound, very prissy but a nice little ride. - $85
These are some notes on the horses run through a standard horse auction in just one night. I could take similar ones here. A bunch of unwanted thoroughbreds ("TB") and standardbreds (harness racing horses). Lots of other people breeding every other kind of unwanted horse, but knocking out racing would lower the number of head slaughtered tremendously.
There are so many people trying to rescue, too, but never enough homes.
Statistics: Posted by Ruffian_Archive — Tue May 06, 2008 12:17 am
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Horse auctions are not typically glamorous places. They are not all thoroughbred sales with pricey racehorses. Most thoroughbreds and unwanted stock run through and sell from about $50 to $200. You literally can't give them away, except to the meatman. People breed so goddamn many in hopes that they'll get one that doesn't break their leg. THen they get their "horse of a lifetime." They should probably be looking to strengthen this fragile breed and NOT race them at a young age. Unfortunately, the majority of racehorse trainers are traditionalists, it seems, and they just don't give a fuck. This results in the horses' careers, and often their lives, being just a few years long. I would not break a horse to ride until after he is two years old, and wait at least until he is 3-4 to do any strenuous work. Their bones are just not ready for that kind of workload.
I go to the auction to help people find horses to buy and sometimes the things I see break my heart. Two weeks ago, purchased an old gray gelding right out of the kill pen. He has a pleasant temperment and anyone can ride him, but he was getting older and harder to keep weight on (this is why I suspect his owners dumped him). Whoever had him should have shown some respect after the the years of work this horse put out for people. I'm just cleaning up someone else's mess.
Anyway, there were about a dozen or so other horses in the kill pen JUST that week. And this auction is every week, every Wednesday. I'm not some crazy animal rights person, and I don't have any statistics for you (though there probably are). All I'm saying is what I see. I see thoroughbreds glossy as hell, who broke down on the track the day before and would look like a million bucks until you saw them take a crippled step. Babies, and horses that are too slow to keep racing. Look, the industry knows people are disgusted with the breakdowns. But Barbaro (last year) and Eight Belles are just what the whole world hears. Those are big name horses that end up in the derby and become household names. You have no idea how many other no name horses I see discarded--destroyed at the track or shipped off for meat.
I don't wanna really touch the argument about animals being slaves. I think my horses are pretty happy. I also think that if horses were reasoners, they'd pick a lot of lives over the racehorse life.
Statistics: Posted by Ruffian_Archive — Tue May 06, 2008 12:02 am
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Turbo wrote:Oh, it is. Mint Julips, rich wankers, college kids, $7 domestic drafts, and all the fake boobs you can handle.
take away the mint julips and it sounds like southern california. no thanks.
the dead horses makes it even worse.
Statistics: Posted by enframed_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 3:10 pm
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Rick Reuben wrote:Like I said, I did argue against the content of his post. He's wrong across the board right here:
ruffian wrote:They're dirt cheap, a dime a dozen, and there's almost no homes for them.
You're right, you did. Just seemed like a little bit of distracting pile-on to question his industry ties, is all. Anyway, point made.
With regard to the article i posted and your follow-up, i'm willing to accept horse racing as a valid and humane exercise if people are willing to take a long hard look at aspects of the sport (like early racing and overbreeding) that are making it less humane. I mean, i love eating chicken, but i hate factory farming, ya know?
Statistics: Posted by DrAwkward_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 2:23 pm
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Symptom of a Problem that is Getting Worse
As someone who loves the game, I would like to defend racing by explaining that such breakdowns are not an everyday occurrence. I could argue that racing has been terribly unlucky that so many catastrophic events have occurred in high-profile races seen by a nationwide television audience. The sport is not inhumane. It is not brutal. It is not barbaric.
But Eight Belles was a tragic manifestation of a problem that is more pronounced every year. America's breeding industry is producing increasingly fragile thoroughbreds. They may not break down, but they have shorter and shorter racing careers before going to stud to beget even more fragile offspring.
The facts are irrefutable. In 1960, the average U.S. racehorse made 11.3 starts per year. The number has fallen almost every year, and now the average U.S. thoroughbred races a mere 6.3 times per year. Almost every trainer whose career spans the decades will acknowledge that thoroughbreds aren't as robust as they used to be.
There are at least two good explanations for this phenomenon. In earlier eras, most people bred horses in order to race them, and they had a stake in the animals' soundness. By contrast, modern commercial breeders produce horses in order to sell them, and if those horses are unsound, they become somebody else's problem. Because buyers want horses with speed, breeders have filled the thoroughbred species with the genes of fast but unsound horses.
Statistics: Posted by DrAwkward_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 1:38 pm
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Rick Reuben wrote:I'm saying that the same rules need to be enforced both ways.
Then lead by example, man. Maybe people here on the PRF aren't being consistent, but neither are you, as i illustrated.
For the record, i can't even remember ever participating in one of the Federal Reserve discussions. I mean, maybe i chimed in here or there or poke my head in somewhere, but i really don't care enough about it to get into a prolonged debate about it. I defer to those who have read up more on that one. So unless there was some multi-post argument somewhere where i specifically said "i do not believe your Federal Reserve evidence because i don't like the way you argue with people" (and i can't see myself ever having said that), i hope you're referring to the royal "you" when you use those examples.
Statistics: Posted by DrAwkward_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 1:36 pm
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Chromodynamic wrote:It sure does sound like a lot of fun, going to the Kentucky derby.
It's not. The longest day I've ever had was when my dad dragged me there
15 years ago. He was in heaven. Then he lost.
Statistics: Posted by sharko_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 1:26 pm
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Rick Reuben wrote:
I'll illustrate.
Person A: "The Federal Reserve is illegal, debt is slavery, the money is dishonest. Let me show you the evidence."
Person B: "No, thanks. I distrust your motives."
A: "But the evidence is the evidence."
B: "Sorry. I've found something I dislike about you, so I'll ignore your evidence. I did the same thing with Ron Paul."
In the case above, Person B is using unrelated issues to make judgements about the quality of Person A's evidence. But, according to your statement above, you believe that a person who takes a job in an industry he opposes should not have that decision reflect on the quality of his philosophy.
But people need to be consistent. Here, you're saying that a person should not be judged on the way he makes a living, if it contradicts with his personal philosophy. If you agree with that, then it's hypocritical to be intolerant of someone's message if you diagree with something else about the messenger.DrAwkward wrote:i'm not gonna judge what someone does for a living if i don't know their goddamn life story.
I'll illustrate.
Person A: "The Federal Reserve is illegal, debt is slavery, the money is dishonest. Let me show you the evidence."
Person B: "No, thanks. I distrust your motives."
A: "But the evidence is the evidence."
B: "Sorry. I've found something I dislike about you, so I'll ignore your evidence. I did the same thing with Ron Paul."
In the case above, Person B is using unrelated issues to make judgements about the quality of Person A's evidence. But, according to your statement above, you believe that a person who takes a job in an industry he opposes should not have that decision reflect on the quality of his philosophy.
Haha. Why you always gotta make everything about you, man?
Why is it okay for someone to get a free pass in one direction- "I won't judge a man for what he does to pay his bills."- but not okay for someone to get a free pass in the other direction? Why is it permissible to ignore a message about the banking system, based on an opinion about the person bringing the message? It's hypocritical. If you say that a person's work doesn't make you judge him, then why judge a person's message based on your judgement of the person?
It looks like these decisions are just made for convenience and political correctness more than anything. If it's convenient to still like a person who works building bombs, then you overlook his job and continue to like that person. If it's convenient to make an excuse for ignoring evidence about banking based on some other problem you have with the messenger, then that 'other problem' becomes the central issue and is not overlooked.
There's no consistency. It's like, you'll make excuses for others when it suits you, and deny the excuses when it doesn't.
I can see what you're saying, but i can point that finger right back at you and ask the following: Are you saying that a person's message should trump any motives or other personality flaws or contradictions in that person's life or character?
If your answer is no, then your ongoing beef about people attacking you instead of your message seems to not have a leg to stand on.
If your answer is yes, then your initial use of this:
Rick wrote:Ruffian wrote:I sound really preachy, but I've been working with horses for so long
Why have you worked so long in this field if you have so many moral complaints about it?
Doesn't add up.
as a tool to discredit Ruffian's opinions is also a bit hypocritical based on your issues with your perceived persecution on the forum, don't you think?
Statistics: Posted by DrAwkward_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 1:04 pm
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Rick Reuben wrote:
Well, sure, but if you take that approach to the extreme, we'd have to ban all farm animals, because they all work for man. Either you accept that animals serve man or you don't. If you don't, then your opposition has to be absolute- no race horses, no plow horses, no horses for cops, no horses for cowboys, no horses for other equestrian sports. If you accept that it is permissible for animals to serve man, then you have to accept horse racing and then work for a proper balance between exploitation of the animals and the animals' welfare.
DrAwkward wrote: The idea of a life where all you know is run run run run and then suddenly your existence is pain and confusion and more pain and then finally nothing at all...ugh. I guess i just know that i'd hate to be a horse, even a pampered one born and raised to win money for my fat owner.
Well, sure, but if you take that approach to the extreme, we'd have to ban all farm animals, because they all work for man. Either you accept that animals serve man or you don't. If you don't, then your opposition has to be absolute- no race horses, no plow horses, no horses for cops, no horses for cowboys, no horses for other equestrian sports. If you accept that it is permissible for animals to serve man, then you have to accept horse racing and then work for a proper balance between exploitation of the animals and the animals' welfare.
100% agree.
Now you're getting into the abortion argument. Abortion supporters argue that a child born to parents ( usually, parent ) who do not want the baby and are not prepared to take care of it is better off being killed in the womb. Abortion opponents say that all life is sacred and humans should never terminate it. I guess that the 'right to life' position with regards to thoroughbred breeding would be 'make as many horses as you like and let God sort out who grows old and who breaks both ankles'. The pro-abortion side would say 'don't breed the horses- I don't accept the risk that some will die on the track'.When you said "had it not been for horse racing, she wouldn't have been born at all," all that made me think was "well, maybe it had been better had she not been born in the first place?" I dunno, it speaks to a larger existential question about quanity vs. quality of life that i debate with myself across all sorts of issues.
Yeah, that's definitely another place that question applies. Euthanasia and assisted suicide, too. And then when it comes to animals, there's the whole free-range vs. factory farm thing...the quantity vs. quality of life question is applicable all across the board.
It would take a long time to flesh out, but if we accept that animals are subservient to humans (which i do, but many people do not), then we get into what sorts of things are morally acceptable to bring an animal life into the world for, and what aren't...food, labor, entertainment, etc. and how the needs that they serve stack up against the eventual pain or killing of the animal.
I can't wait for the FDA to approve selling cloned animal tissue as food. Man, the day i can eat real bacon without having to kill a pig...too sweet. But until then, sorry porky...
Statistics: Posted by DrAwkward_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 12:56 pm
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Rick Reuben wrote:
Do you think it is 'morally acceptable' to work for a defense contractor if you're a pacifist? Or to work for a bank if you condemn usury?
DrAwkward wrote:"People," maybe, but not me.
Do you think it is 'morally acceptable' to work for a defense contractor if you're a pacifist? Or to work for a bank if you condemn usury?
People do what they do to get through the goddamn day sometimes. Is it ideal? Of course not. But i'm not gonna judge what someone does for a living if i don't know their goddamn life story.
These debates are fun and everything, but at the end of the day, sometimes bills are bills and a job is a job. Is that person working that job temporarily until they can get themselves to a better, less morally gray career path? Are they trying to make their little corner of the business better somehow? Are they completely amoral and lazy and just don't think about these things? Everyone's different.
Statistics: Posted by DrAwkward_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 12:12 pm
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Rick Reuben wrote:
Well, you're wrong. Are you saying that it is wrong to assume that a person who claims to have worked with horses 'for so long' and attends auctions 'weekly' is in the industry he is damning? What are you smoking? Ruffian is clearly implying that he is inside the industry.DrAwkward wrote:See? So you don't know and were jumping to conclusions about what he does based on the incomplete details he presented. Just sayin'.
Admittedly i'm working from a point of ignorance here as i'm not sure what other aspects of working with horses there are other than just the racing industry. My only point was that it could be that Ruffian works with horses and finds himself bumping up against the racing biz, but doesn't work in the racing biz. I don't see that as an outlandish concept, but maybe i'm talking out my ass. Feel free to set me straight, i guess. Ruffian! Say something!
Do you have any criticisms of horse racing yourself? Do you want it outlawed? Do you feel like oversight of breeders is inadequate? Speak up.
I don't know enough about it because i've never cared enough about horses in general. I do know that the whole Eight Belles story this weekend made me profoundly sad and angry. The idea of a life where all you know is run run run run and then suddenly your existence is pain and confusion and more pain and then finally nothing at all...ugh. I guess i just know that i'd hate to be a horse, even a pampered one born and raised to win money for my fat owner.
When you said "had it not been for horse racing, she wouldn't have been born at all," all that made me think was "well, maybe it had been better had she not been born in the first place?" I dunno, it speaks to a larger existential question about quanity vs. quality of life that i debate with myself across all sorts of issues.
Statistics: Posted by DrAwkward_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 12:08 pm
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Rick Reuben wrote:
I think it's funny that this sentiment appears on this particular forum. Isn't that what people are always giving Albini grief for? Taking money to do records that comes from the corporations that he condemns?dr awkward wrote:To say "if you have moral complaints about a field, don't work in it" is a major over-simplification and too black and white.
"People," maybe, but not me.
Statistics: Posted by DrAwkward_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 11:56 am
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Rick Reuben wrote:
Of course, he could be there as a PETA protestor, which, based on this being his first post and based on his post reading like a PETA newsletter, probably has a likelihood of about 98%.
Sure he did. If he's at horse auctions then he's in the industry. Horse auctions are where race horse are bought and sold.DrAwkward wrote:You may want to note that Ruffian did not at any point say that he's specifically in the horse racing industry.
ruffian wrote:Every week that I attend the local horse auction people try to dump their slow, lame, or baby thoroughbreds.
Of course, he could be there as a PETA protestor, which, based on this being his first post and based on his post reading like a PETA newsletter, probably has a likelihood of about 98%.
See? So you don't know and were jumping to conclusions about what he does based on the incomplete details he presented. Just sayin'.
Statistics: Posted by DrAwkward_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 11:44 am
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Rick Reuben wrote:
I'm sure every trainer and jockey and groomer, etc. has issues with the racing industry, too. But Ruffian has *zero* good things to say about it. Does the basketball player you name have *zero* good things to say about making his living playing basketball?DrAwkward wrote:I disagree with this. It's possible to love horses and work with them and have issues with the racing biz.
You may want to note that Ruffian did not at any point say that he's specifically in the horse racing industry.
Statistics: Posted by DrAwkward_Archive — Mon May 05, 2008 11:36 am
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