hey guys, i'm new here please don't mind me
we recently got into a habit of delaying overhead tracks by approx -10 ms in restless efforts to gain some more "space" in mix.. and sometimes we like it, sometimes things get chorus-y and ugly. anybody else does that? if so, how do you do that? we do mixes in SF Vegas 4, so I just move the overhead track.
generally, i'm interested in learning some tricks that can help for "bigger" drum sounds at mixdown (we have a rather poor microphone base and can't do ambient miking).
cheers and thanks
Delaying drum overhead tracks in mix
2I've never done it. It doesn't sound like something that would carry real benifit.
If anything, you might want to try delaying the close mics on the kit 4-5 milliseconds to time align their signals with the overheads (using the overheads as a reference of the drum sound - measure the distance from the overhead's plane to each mic, then divide that by 1100 to = delay time in seconds). This may be taking too far at any rate - considering you'll need more than a few delays and you're digitizing your pristine drum signals into a device that will add noise and lower headroom. If you wanna' experiment though....
If anything, you might want to try delaying the close mics on the kit 4-5 milliseconds to time align their signals with the overheads (using the overheads as a reference of the drum sound - measure the distance from the overhead's plane to each mic, then divide that by 1100 to = delay time in seconds). This may be taking too far at any rate - considering you'll need more than a few delays and you're digitizing your pristine drum signals into a device that will add noise and lower headroom. If you wanna' experiment though....
Delaying drum overhead tracks in mix
3it's a good idea sometimes, this delaying of room mics
personally, i would not fool with the close mics, unless you have more than one mic on a drum, and for some reason delaying one of them makes it sound phat or something.
the short version is that what you have already noticed. delaying the mics in time is like moving them back in space, and the mics will sound good at some distances and not so good at others.
the balance between 'good' and 'not-good' hinges on the relationship between the signal propagating directly from the drum to the overhead and the reflections of that signal that also reach the overhead at some significant signal level. if the 'direct' signal and the reflected signal are phase coherent at the mic for a given frequency, then that frequency will be reinforced in the overall mix. the opposite is true if they are not coherent. the less coherent they are, the more that frequency is attenuated, to the point of cancellation if they are exactly out of phase.
hint: up to about 20ms of delay, you are playing with spaciousness, ambience, and all that jazz. anything more than 20ms, you get into slapback and audible delay effects. you should just get the overheads to sound good and play with it afterwards if you so desire.
personally, i would not fool with the close mics, unless you have more than one mic on a drum, and for some reason delaying one of them makes it sound phat or something.
the short version is that what you have already noticed. delaying the mics in time is like moving them back in space, and the mics will sound good at some distances and not so good at others.
the balance between 'good' and 'not-good' hinges on the relationship between the signal propagating directly from the drum to the overhead and the reflections of that signal that also reach the overhead at some significant signal level. if the 'direct' signal and the reflected signal are phase coherent at the mic for a given frequency, then that frequency will be reinforced in the overall mix. the opposite is true if they are not coherent. the less coherent they are, the more that frequency is attenuated, to the point of cancellation if they are exactly out of phase.
hint: up to about 20ms of delay, you are playing with spaciousness, ambience, and all that jazz. anything more than 20ms, you get into slapback and audible delay effects. you should just get the overheads to sound good and play with it afterwards if you so desire.
Delaying drum overhead tracks in mix
4There was a very interesting discussion about delaying drum microphones here:
www.electrical.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php ... y+delaying
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
www.electrical.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php ... y+delaying
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
Delaying drum overhead tracks in mix
5just be conscious of what kind of cymbal sound the music has before you try this technique. if the beats are slow and open and you have a crash heavy, washy cymbal sound, you can probably get away with being more agressive with the room delay (up to around 30ms) and it can sound really great. however, if you have a lot of fast 'tap-tap' hi-hats (ala robert gotobed) or a lot of bell hits, you (like I) might find the 't-ting' 't-ting's might interfere with the rhythm of the song... even with a really fast delay like 15-ms. especially annoying is when the high hat is coming mostly through the snare mic up close (meaning mostly centerish) and then through the delayed room mics (probably off center), so you get this really fast panning delay action going accross your mix, most likely not in rhythm with the song.
personally, i'd try to find alternate ways to get more space in the mix first.
personally, i'd try to find alternate ways to get more space in the mix first.
Delaying drum overhead tracks in mix
6this is slightly related to the topic at hand. i'm wondering what the essential difference is between putting the ambient mics in front of, as opposed to behind, the kit. i'm assuming the decision depends on whether you want more snare in the ambient mics (mics behind kit) vs less snare and more low end (mics out front) or is this not at all a factor?
Delaying drum overhead tracks in mix
7this is slightly related to the topic at hand. i'm wondering what the essential difference is between putting the ambient mics in front of, as opposed to behind, the kit. i'm assuming the decision depends on whether you want more snare in the ambient mics (mics behind kit) vs less snare and more low end (mics out front) or is this not at all a factor?