As much as I hate arguing over this subject, I feel like this needs to be answered. Your post, capnreverb, really boils down to nothing more than ad hominum arguments, inductive logic, and senseless rants. You seem
so interested in pointing the finger and making villifying accusations about Christianity, I have to wonder what the real issue is. There must be a
reason other than simple disbelief that would cause you to have so much hatred toward it.

Have you seen footage of what the germans did to jews?
There is no God. If there is one, he sure don't give a shit.

This really is one of the worst arguments I've ever read. What you really should have typed is "The nation of Germany commited an atrocity once,
therefore I have absolute knowledge that no being with absolute knowledge exists."

How much have you researched the first 200 years of christianity?

Enough to argue circles around you, and I'm not exaggerating in the least bit. But believing in Jesus Christ isn't something that occurs as a result of
winning an argument with someone. Arguments only serve to distract from the real issue at hand--what is your problem with God?

puffpastry wrote:--what is your problem with God?

His persistant absence from the scene is causing no end of bickering amongst his groupies.

The thing that gets me is the commercialization and exploitation of religion in society. Many, many people are told what to believe in, and how to believe in it. It's horseshit... and it's a big turn-off to even approaching organized religion. Religion is too often used as a tool in order for someone to gain material. Most often, it's money, of course.

First of all, who is anyone to tell anyone else what to believe in. I think belief in god, or what have you should be individual for everyone. And I know there are people out there who have their shit straight, and have legitimacy in their beliefs and religion. But I've run into too many lost fucking people who couldn't tell me one good reason why they attend church, or why they believe what they believe... just simple concepts. They just do it because that's what is normal to do. Bothersome.

Another thing. You can't contain religion inside of a church. It's like herding in cattle. They are given their daily dose. Then donations are highly sought after from folks who attend church. Yes, yes... I know. This isn't always the case. But it does happen. It's material possesions. Money should have nothing to do with a persons individual religion, or beliefs. Sure a church needs money to keep going. There's no problem with that. But what I do have a problem with, is seeing all the televangelist fucks on tv with their gold bracelets, platinum watches, and fancy suits; twisting the words of the bible into whatever meaning they see fit, and mindfucking mass crowds of people (or cattle... if they're buying this Benny Hinn bullshit). Those fucks always end up caught in a Motel 6 parking lot getting blown by little boys anyway.

I just think people want something to believe in. They want answers. How was the earth created... why are we here... blah blah blah. People can't stand not knowing, or admitting that they don't know. People can't handle the truth. Which is often that we don't know the answer. So they say "God did it!" There's no physical proof of god, or that the bible is real. There are only myths of the arc being found. And stories in the bible rarely match up w/ science. I'm a science man myself. I believe in facts and data over faith. Faith... which is the complete absence of proof. To have faith is to blindly believe, with no hard evidence. And that's what religion is. Hey, I'm not saying anyone is wrong or a bad person for being religious... it's just not my cup of joe.

Oh, and one more thing. My favorite group of religious enthusiasts are the fundamentalist christians. These people only believe what is in the bible... nothing else. There's no mention of UFO's or aliens (directly) in the bible. So they believe that we are the only life in all of the endless void that is space. Just us, out of the trillions and trillions of stars, planets, and solar systems. There is also nothing about dinosaurs in the bible. So this group of ignorant fucks deny dinosaurs ever existing. Hello!!! We have the fossils. Gotta' love these fucks!

Sorry about the rambling. Tis' a subject I am very opinionated on. Just not very eloquently spoken. My bad.

When I'm ramblin' round at night
And the police think I'm high,
Never find my bottle, though they ask.
(yes, they ask)
Plastic Jesus shelters me--
For his head comes off, you see
He's hollow and I use him for a flask!

Plastic Jesus, Plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car
Once his robes were snowy white,
Now they aren't quite so bright--
Stained by the smoke of my cigar.

My main beef with Christianity is symbolism. Western Civilization isn't advanced enough to have a religion that they believe in without being able to touch/see it (though Christianity claims this, I'll believe it when they take all the statues out of the Catholic churches). I've found Unitarian Universalism to be quite intriguing, and some ELCA Lutheran Churches are good about more cerebral religion as opposed to worshiping an idol-- that's what Jesus is according to Webster's Dictionary.

the jazz forum is closed and this one is open? Are you guys serious?

geiginni wrote:I found God in listening to Debussy's 'Le Mer'

It's "La Mer", and Debussy's fuckin' awesome.

Similar results may be found with Coltrane's 'A Love Supreme'.

I love this record.