Angriest_Dragon wrote:

Marsupialized wrote:Post subject: Act:US droping atomic bombs on Japan

droping?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
droping = NOT CRAP

doh!
is one missed letter THAT funny?

Some more food for thought.

The firebombings of Tokyo and other Japanese cities killed more than the atomic bombs did.

The decisions wasn't solely to end the war.

There were 2 other big big reasons.

1. Russia had declared war on Japan not long before we did it. We did not want another berlin situation with the ruskies coming in, which there was a real chance of.

2. Even before the end of the war, cold war a reality. By using the bomb it was a show of force to the Russians.

I say NC on Hiroshima and Crap on Nagasaki. I don't think we gave enough time after Hiroshima for the reality of the situation to sink in.


TMH-
Even if The Nazi's had abandoned it, even if there was intelligence at the time to suggest that, it would've been insanity not to develop it. What if the intelligence was wrong? If Germany had won the war in Europe AND had atomic capabilities, there would be no way at all to stop them. I honestly believe that at this point, the entire world would be like N. Korea at best.

Also, yeah, Japan had been planning an attack on California and British Columbia. TR and Laurier (I think it was Laurier) were pretty concerned about it. That was one of the reasons to send out the Great White Fleet to the Pacific as a show of force. The Japanese actually been planning it since the beginning of the 20th century. The Japanese government had been sending settlers there to prepare for it.
Ther

Also, even though the attack on pearl harbor was not an attack on american soil, someone had to do something about the shit that Japan was pulling. The massacres in china and forceful conquest of massive amounts of east asia alone were justifications to go to war.

Major Major wrote:

toomanyhelicopters wrote: the guy who flew the plane killed himself, right? even the people involved at the time knew right afterward that it was a terrible thing to have done. CRAP CRAP CRAP.

Paul Tibbets, the pilot of Enola Gay is still alive at 90. Apparently he still thinks Truman was correct in ordering the bombing.

Who knew?

i can't find anything on the net about any of the crew committing suicide, but i distinctly remember one of the crew members involved in the dropping of one of the bombs having been described as committing suicide due to guilt, on the history channel's documentary series about WWII that i saw a couple years ago. it was clearly not the guy who's still alive.

also from wikipedia, "The firebombing had killed well over 100,000 people in Japan, since February of 1945, directly and indirectly". the nuclear bombings are generally credited with 300K deaths. so to speak to your other point, "um, no".

to those who would say that we *had* to pursue it, because of the possibility that the Nazis or Japanese or Soviets could have it and us not have it and then we'd be fucked... by that rationale, the US should pursue the development, engineering, and production of every weapon we can think of, and certainly every weapon that we think someone else may have thought of. no? or is it just nukes, that's enough? as long as we have the ability to totally destroy entire nations in a matter of seconds, then we're alright?

toomanyhelicopters wrote: also from wikipedia, "The firebombing had killed well over 100,000 people in Japan, since February of 1945, directly and indirectly". the nuclear bombings are generally credited with 300K deaths. so to speak to your other point, "um, no".

to those who would say that we *had* to pursue it, because of the possibility that the Nazis or Japanese or Soviets could have it and us not have it and then we'd be fucked... by that rationale, the US should pursue the development, engineering, and production of every weapon we can think of, and certainly every weapon that we think someone else may have thought of. no? or is it just nukes, that's enough? as long as we have the ability to totally destroy entire nations in a matter of seconds, then we're alright?

As for the firebombing, I didn't really search too hard on that one. I stand corrected. Although I probably should have clarified that I meant one atom bomb equated to the firebombing of Tokyo and other cities so that makes my margin of error a little closer.

As for the development to beat everyone else theory I never said I thought that wasn't stupid. Unfortunately that's what the government thought we had to do at the end of WWII through the 80s.

Look where developing every ridiculous idea got the Germans? They went for every stupid idea when if they'd have just concentrated on a few ie: the ME-262, they might have held the allies off for who knows how long?

Look where throwing money at everything got the Soviets during the cold war?

Meanwhile the U.S. is still wasting money on crap like SDI. I can't wait to see what useless yet expensive 'anti-terrist' technology we come up with next.

toomanyhelicopters wrote:i distinctly remember one of the crew members involved in the dropping of one of the bombs having been described as committing suicide due to guilt.

You need to prove that.

Hiroshima: Crap, big waffles.
- I don't buy the idea that every single Japanese citizen was going to fight to the death. If you want to believe Imperialist Japanese propaganda, that's fine; I don't. For one thing, I think it overestimates the power of their fascism and makes too much of the stereotypical Japanese conformity. Anyway, if they were prepared to let every Japanese citizen die before surrendering, why did a mere one to three hundred thousand casualties make them think twice?
- I think they would have surrendered without a land invasion. Nobody knows, and experts (which I am not, and I suspect no one else here is either) disagree on this point, so I'm not claiming that I know some truth that everyone else here doesn't, but that's my belief.

Nagasaki: Crap, no waffles.
- The first one did the job (if the job needed doing at all). Sure, the surrender wasn't immediate, but it was on its way, and I'm not sure if the Nagasaki bomb sped it up at all. Even if it did, it did nothing to reduce casualties of any kind, and it did not prevent an invasion of the main islands of Japan.
- It's my understanding that the bomb dropped on Nagasaki was the only one of its kind at the time. If you had something that powerful, wouldn't you want to hold it in reserve, see how things panned out? I think I would. Especially if part of dropping the bombs was supposed to send a message to the Soviets.
- If civilians are being killed, I personally don't care what kind they are. However, if you are the kind of person who cares about some civilians more than others, and you are an American, Christian, or other Westerner, then Nagasaki is about the worst Japanese city you can bomb. For at least 500 years, Nagasaki had been the most western-friendly and most Christianized city in Japan.

Bradley R. Weissenberger wrote:

toomanyhelicopters wrote:i distinctly remember one of the crew members involved in the dropping of one of the bombs having been described as committing suicide due to guilt.

You need to prove that.

well now brad you know i can't *prove* that i remember hearing it.

i've spent more time than i should on searching for anything to back up that statement. and i've found nothing.

if anybody sees that the history channel doc about WWII (it was hours and hours long) please keep an ear out.

one thing i did come across in all this was that Oppenheimer was plagued by guilt over having been a part of the development of the bomb until his death.

and this quote... "...Most of the crew members of the planes directly involved in bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki seem to have been affected by this operation little more than they would have been by an ordinary bombing raid..."

so i guess until i have some sort of source, consider the suicide of a crew member to be a falsehood.

this is probably what i'm misremembering as "committing suicide". he tried but *failed*.

Claude Robert Eatherley

Hiroshima ... Without any clouds

On one of the three B-29s, the one that was controlling the timing and leading the operation, Claude R. Eatherley, gave the following report at 6:05 a.m., when the ascent to 25,000 feet began: “Cloud cover over Kokura,â€

"It's not a proud thing. It was a devastating thing. It's
unfortunate, but it probably saved hundreds of thousands of
American lives and many more Japanese lives." - (2nd Lt.)
Morris Jeppson, 8/7/05.

Jeppson, along with William Parsons, armed the atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima.

Maybe a "Unfortunate, but necessary" choice should be
added to the poll.