You know, the 'let's roll' 9/11 plane.
Anyone think this plane was shot down by f16's and the entire 'let's roll' story is BS?
Or do you buy the explaination of a passenger revolt causing it to crash?
Flight 93:Crashed or shot down?
2this is a really good question, one that i don't think we'll ever have a real answer to.
some folks claim that the impact site is consistent with an intact plane crashing.
some folks claim that the debris field that was observed shortly after impact was not consistent with an intact plane crashing.
it seems like a really tough call, because if they just shot one of the engines off the plane, the non-commercial/non-military-pilot (hijacker) would almost certainly not be able to deal, and an almost-entirely-intact plane would indeed crash into the ground. hell, even the best pro pilot might not be able to keep it in the air... it's a requirement that every commerical plane have enough thrust to fly with one engine failed completely... but i dunno about whether or not the plane becomes fully unflyable with the wing damage it would likely sustain.
looking at it from a conspiracy-theorist perspective, it's a goldmine!
on the one hand, passengers were talking on cell phones with loved ones who had been watching the news that day, and who knew that planes were being used as bombs. so in that sense, a passenger revolt is, i think, highly likely.
on the other hand, what better deterrent is their to terrorists who might think about doing this again than for them to think the passengers themselves will rise up and overpower them? pre-9/11, if you slit a passenger's throat and left them in plain view, people would probably cower in fear and not do jack shit. post-9/11, that isn't gonna work. unless you have the ability to overpower all the able-bodied individuals on the flight, you're probably not gonna be able to hijack a US passenger jet without a mob of people coming to rip you to pieces. so in that sense, it's a great story, the whole "let's roll" thing. plus, you gotta figure the american public creams itself over the "let's roll" thing, and if it was "the Air Force shot down a plane full of civilians", even with 9/11 in play, people would still be all "you coulda done this, you coulda done that". the "let's roll" story is a case-closed thing. nobody can say shit about it. except that they don't believe it.
the fact that neil young made a song from this catch-phrase really saddens me. even if it's all about expression of his passionate patriotism, it just seems kinda lame to me.
was it shot down?
probably not.
but maybe.
hey, what about TWA flight 800?
i was actually offered a job with the FBI several years ago, and one of the things the agent was using to sell the job to me was that they were currently in the midst of analyzing and re-analyzing the black box tape from flight 800.
would i love to know the truth about that sorta stuff, about what really happened? hell yeah, LOTS. would i wanna deal with the life of an intelligence-agency guy? hell no.
i told him "i don't think you guys would want me. i have a really, really big mouth. i wouldn't be able to keep it shut". and that was the last time i saw him.
this is the nature of intelligence. none of us will ever be able to do more than take things at face value, or dispute them and either come up with our own theories or latch onto compelling conspiracy theories that always abound. none of us will ever know with any certainty. unless you were there, and saw it happen. i of course wasn't.
i'll go with "really was a passenger revolt", because it is highly plausible, due to the whole phone conversations with loved ones thing. with the very high waffle factor being that i think it's equally plausible that it was shot down.
some folks claim that the impact site is consistent with an intact plane crashing.
some folks claim that the debris field that was observed shortly after impact was not consistent with an intact plane crashing.
it seems like a really tough call, because if they just shot one of the engines off the plane, the non-commercial/non-military-pilot (hijacker) would almost certainly not be able to deal, and an almost-entirely-intact plane would indeed crash into the ground. hell, even the best pro pilot might not be able to keep it in the air... it's a requirement that every commerical plane have enough thrust to fly with one engine failed completely... but i dunno about whether or not the plane becomes fully unflyable with the wing damage it would likely sustain.
looking at it from a conspiracy-theorist perspective, it's a goldmine!
on the one hand, passengers were talking on cell phones with loved ones who had been watching the news that day, and who knew that planes were being used as bombs. so in that sense, a passenger revolt is, i think, highly likely.
on the other hand, what better deterrent is their to terrorists who might think about doing this again than for them to think the passengers themselves will rise up and overpower them? pre-9/11, if you slit a passenger's throat and left them in plain view, people would probably cower in fear and not do jack shit. post-9/11, that isn't gonna work. unless you have the ability to overpower all the able-bodied individuals on the flight, you're probably not gonna be able to hijack a US passenger jet without a mob of people coming to rip you to pieces. so in that sense, it's a great story, the whole "let's roll" thing. plus, you gotta figure the american public creams itself over the "let's roll" thing, and if it was "the Air Force shot down a plane full of civilians", even with 9/11 in play, people would still be all "you coulda done this, you coulda done that". the "let's roll" story is a case-closed thing. nobody can say shit about it. except that they don't believe it.
the fact that neil young made a song from this catch-phrase really saddens me. even if it's all about expression of his passionate patriotism, it just seems kinda lame to me.
was it shot down?
probably not.
but maybe.
hey, what about TWA flight 800?
i was actually offered a job with the FBI several years ago, and one of the things the agent was using to sell the job to me was that they were currently in the midst of analyzing and re-analyzing the black box tape from flight 800.
would i love to know the truth about that sorta stuff, about what really happened? hell yeah, LOTS. would i wanna deal with the life of an intelligence-agency guy? hell no.
i told him "i don't think you guys would want me. i have a really, really big mouth. i wouldn't be able to keep it shut". and that was the last time i saw him.
this is the nature of intelligence. none of us will ever be able to do more than take things at face value, or dispute them and either come up with our own theories or latch onto compelling conspiracy theories that always abound. none of us will ever know with any certainty. unless you were there, and saw it happen. i of course wasn't.
i'll go with "really was a passenger revolt", because it is highly plausible, due to the whole phone conversations with loved ones thing. with the very high waffle factor being that i think it's equally plausible that it was shot down.
LVP wrote:If, say, 10% of lions tried to kill gazelles, compared with 10% of savannah animals in general, I think that gazelle would be a lousy racist jerk.
Flight 93:Crashed or shot down?
4After watching the documentary last night, I buy it.
They must have been so incredibly terrified.
From the conversations they had with people on the ground it seems like they had sufficient time and information to know their fate.
It seems to me that the time they had, 45 minutes or so, would be enough for a lot of that terror to turn to anger. A flight response turning into a fight response maybe.
The "Let's Roll" thing is a pretty desperate attempt to turn something so horrible into something motivational, but I can see why.
At any rate, watching that documentary brought back a lot of memories and feelings from that day.
Very, very sad indeed.
They must have been so incredibly terrified.
From the conversations they had with people on the ground it seems like they had sufficient time and information to know their fate.
It seems to me that the time they had, 45 minutes or so, would be enough for a lot of that terror to turn to anger. A flight response turning into a fight response maybe.
The "Let's Roll" thing is a pretty desperate attempt to turn something so horrible into something motivational, but I can see why.
At any rate, watching that documentary brought back a lot of memories and feelings from that day.
Very, very sad indeed.
Flight 93:Crashed or shot down?
6toomanyhelicopters wrote: so in that sense, it's a great story, the whole "let's roll" thing. plus, you gotta figure the american public creams itself over the "let's roll" thing,
I'm ashamed of this country sometimes.
I vote with the revolt theory.
Flight 93:Crashed or shot down?
7I haven't seen the documentary but have heard a lot on both sides. Clearly I don't "know" in with any real epistemic certainty what actually happened, but I tend to think that it was shot down.
Now...I think the power of belief is huge and most Americans don't want to think that our government would do that. Nor do they like to think of their loved ones dying like that. Acts of heroism are much more satiating for us and somehow provide meaning in an event that really has none.
I won't rain on someone's parade though if in fact they do believe that.
I lost my uncle in WTC 2 so I know how shitty it is to think of such meaningless shit to happen to people who were just going to work.
Now...I think the power of belief is huge and most Americans don't want to think that our government would do that. Nor do they like to think of their loved ones dying like that. Acts of heroism are much more satiating for us and somehow provide meaning in an event that really has none.
I won't rain on someone's parade though if in fact they do believe that.
I lost my uncle in WTC 2 so I know how shitty it is to think of such meaningless shit to happen to people who were just going to work.
ABC Group Documentation>New Music For Working People
Flight 93:Crashed or shot down?
10Champion Rabbit wrote:What is 'let's roll'?
I'm not familiar.
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