I was wondering if any of you might have any opinions on this.

I'm going through to another city to make a fairly simple recording of a Jazz duet consisting of a hollow-body electric Jazz guitar and a grand piano.

The problem is, I'm limited to using the guitarist's stereo DAT recorder to make the recording. The quality of the DAT is not really an issue - it is a top-end Tascam model which should sound ok, but the two tracks is obviously limiting.

I can bring a fairly wide variety of microphones to use (several dynamics, ribbons, condensers), but I believe that there is no mixer available.

So ultimately, I have to decide what way to record these two tracks.

I am currently considering either;

A stereo pair (eg. two M160s) and arrange the instruments somehow to get a decent image whilst hoping that the acoustics of the room or hall are good.

or

Tracking the electric guitar and piano seperately in mono to each of the two tracks and then mixing it at home and adding reverb to position the piano, etc.

Any ideas? Also, I'm, not sure about micing a grand piano in mono - bad idea?

You don't have a smaller mixer you can take there? Or borrow one? Or rent one? I would try to get a mixer,

If not, I guess I'd go with the sterio setup and just move around till you hit the sweet spot.

Good suggestion.

I've got a friend through there who I will try and persuade to lend me his mixer.

If not though, I may just have to old-school it and try and make a good stereo recording. It is Jazz though...

i would be inclined to say that given the kind of mellow nature of the sound of the instruments, you could get something really cool sounding out of a simple stereo pair. given the tamber of those two instruments and characteristics of the music they're playing, they (the instruments) probably won't be fighting each other for space in the room as much as, say, an electric guitar, bass, drums, keys type of situation.

i'm assuming that the players are probably very conscious of their dynamics while playing as well, as most good jazz players seem to be, so it'll probably mix itself.

whenever i've recorded something similar to this, i always use two condensors, usually set to omni if the mic permits, and then later send the tracks to a stereo reverb aux to create some openness.

and like skatingbasser mentioned, just keep moving the mics around til they sound good.

You can get a really great recording with a good stereo pair, and it will surely sound better than two mono mics with fake verb. The pair you choose wil greatly depend on the room though, as wil the placement. Is it a live show? A blumlein could work really well to pick up the crowd and/or the sound of room.

You might find the Beyers are too dark as your only mics. Can you get a matched pair of SD condensors?

If you get a mixer, and the room is really nice sounding, I would try an ORTF to capture the stereo field of the group (relatively close), a pair of spaced omnis to capture the ambience and to widen the stereo field, and maybe close mics on the instruments in case you want to bring up solos, or just add some defintion if the pairs aren't providing enough.

good luck rodabod.

mike

Post samples when you're done. And I'll second the Angry Russian - skip the fake reverb.

= Justin

Thanks for the advice.

I'll be going through to record on Thursday, so I still have a couple of days to sort shit out.

I've located a 6 channel mixer which I can borrow..... But it is a [cringe] Behringer. It's not actually terrible though.

Now, I have spoken to the musicians, and I now know that I will be recording a baby grand piano and a Gibson ES 175. The room is large (but not a concert hall) and is probably around 8 - 10 metres long (and probably roughly that wide too). There will be no audience (fortunately... I don't like recording with an audience).

I doubt I'll be able to get a pair of SD condensers. My mate has a pair which I would have borrowed, but he's just gone to London to work for the BBC. So, I am left with something like these potential mics;


3X Sennheiser MD421 Dynamic
1X Beyer Soundstar Dynamic
2X Beyer M160 Ribbon
2X Beyer M260 Ribbon
1X B&O BM5 Stereo Ribbon - (Mixer will not like this)
1X Oktava Early MK219 Condenser
1X Oktava MKL2500 Valve Condenser
3X Beyer M201 Dynamic
1X DIY Neumann-esque Condenser with wide-cardiod / almost omni pattern


Mike, the stereo setups you described sound good - I could even record an ORTF setup straight to DAT without a mixer. Since I don't know the room, I might not take the risk of a Blumlein. Also, a Behringer mixer would not be happy with my fig. of 8 mics.

With six channels, I had originally thought of putting the M160s in the piano on the bass and treble strings, and then having a condenser pointing at the soundboard (or whatever it's called) from a distance (I have heard this sounds good). Then with three tracks left, I could have one mic close-ish on the guitar and have two spare channels for ambience.

Does that sound stupid? Maybe I'm over-complicating things.

Thanks,

Roddy

hmm...

the MKL2500 will probably sound great on the gtr amp, about 8-12" away centered on the cone. Im assuming a lot of stuff here.

You could try the (2) 260s on the piano (lo/hi) and the 160s in ORTF or X/Y. With the supplemental close mics the Beyers could be nice. Also, you don't really have another choice for stereo mics. If you could get a nice quiet preamp, the B&O stereo ribbon could be nice insde of the piano as well.

Id keep it simple if I were you, especially since it's going likve to 2 track. The more mics you have on the piano, the greater the chance of getting some "weirdness".

mike

I might try the 160's or the stereo ribbon straight to the dat. (do you have a preamp?) I'd start with the mics fairly close and move them out until you hear a good blend of direct and room sound.

If you feel the need to use close mics as well, go for it. Mono piano is fine (I think) especially if you also have stereo overall mics.

I find that using as few mics as possible will work best for something like this. If a stereo pair works, it might sound really good.

What is the music like? You might want a different sound for "in jazz" than you would for "free improv"

-Amos

That's a good suggestion.

I'll probably go with what Michael says, but obviously start with the stereo setup and then see if there is any need for additional mics.

The DAT recorder actually has a decent stereo preamp built in. It is a portable Tascam model which cost ~ $2K.

amos wrote:What is the music like? You might want a different sound for "in jazz" than you would for "free improv"

I don't know a great deal about Jazz, but there is a chance it will be fucking mental. I once played with the guys and we did some Miles Davis. I would describe the guitarist as fairly classic Jazz, but the piano player is off his rocker.

I'd prefer to get a natural sound rather than the bright sound of some modern recordings.