Linus Van Pelt wrote:The fact that some people want/need a sex change is a function of the society we live in, and I think it's sad that this society makes some people want/need a sex change. However, given that some people want/need a sex change, I think it's good that they can get one.

How has our society caused gender identity disorders?

DrAwkward wrote:How has our society caused gender identity disorders?

I would say (even though I'm not Linus Van Pelt here...) that our society has created gender identity disorders by creating the stereotypical images of the working man, or housewife, etc. So when someone doesn't fit that stereotype, it becomes hard for them to reconcile their lifestyle to the unmet expectations.

This isn't something that is unique to American society, I don't believe.

Linus Van Pelt wrote:Okay, here's what I'll say, and I'll try to be more concise:

The fact that some people want/need a sex change is a function of the society we live in, and I think it's sad that this society makes some people want/need a sex change. However, given that some people want/need a sex change, I think it's good that they can get one.

How is that?

It's lousy with conditionality. I don't think a case can be made that transgender people are only that way because of "society." They have a medical problem, since birth, that has caused them to be identified as belonging to one gender, while they are (in every respect except the corporeal) another.

This is a real, treatable condition, and thinking of it in any other way -- thinking of it as something in-between a medical condition and a frame of mind -- is in a way, making a joke of it. Fuck that.

BadComrade wrote:I think the real question here is:

Would you insert your penis in to a man made vagina?

I think most of us would not. I have no idea what the hell is in there. I admit ignorance, but I cannot imagine it as anything but an unhygienic pocket.

That said, maybe some of us already have. I met a woman who came to a party I hosted, whom I later learned was about to get the job done. I talked with her for 20 minutes, and found her charming and girlish. If they do a halfway decent job of making girls out of boys, and she has no inclination to tell you the score, you could suddenly be bi-sexual with an asterix.

steve wrote:

Linus Van Pelt wrote:Okay, here's what I'll say, and I'll try to be more concise:

The fact that some people want/need a sex change is a function of the society we live in, and I think it's sad that this society makes some people want/need a sex change. However, given that some people want/need a sex change, I think it's good that they can get one.

How is that?

It's lousy with conditionality. I don't think a case can be made that transgender people are only that way because of "society." They have a medical problem, since birth, that has caused them to be identified as belonging to one gender, while they are (in every respect except the corporeal) another.

This is a real, treatable condition, and thinking of it in any other way -- thinking of it as something in-between a medical condition and a frame of mind -- is in a way, making a joke of it. Fuck that.

Ok I've been watching this thread, and at this point I'll say that you are correct, Steve, when you say that some people are born with birth defects that give them malformed genitalia or gross hormonal inbalances. There's nothing wrong with corrective surgery or other medical treatment to fix these defects because that's what they are- defects. They are comparable to being born with a cleft palate.

On the other hand, I really don't think most people that undergo a "sex change" (a contradiction in terms) are born with malformed genitalia or even gross hormonal problems. They are usually adults with more or less normal bodies who for one reason or another hate their sexuality and will go so far as to mutilate themselves in an attempt to "fix" what they perceive is wrong with them. In reality however, people are born either male or female...persons with malformed genitalia or hormonal abnormalities are just that, they are abnormal in the physiological sense. To say that their bodies are "normal" is like saying that it is normal to be born without limbs. This isn't a lack of compassion on my part for those unfortunate people...hardly, and I hope that medical science can do all it in its power to help these folks. All I am trying to say is that male and female is the fundamental dichotomy in the human species. It's the norm, and the sexuality that each of us has is a gift that should be a source of great happiness, not loathing, hatred and narcissism as is the case with the vast majority of the "transgendered" population.

Johnny 13 wrote:

BadComrade wrote:I think the real question here is:

Would you insert your penis in to a man made vagina?

I think most of us would not. I have no idea what the hell is in there. I admit ignorance, but I cannot imagine it as anything but an unhygienic pocket.

I'd say these are fairly convincing "pockets."

Medical science, you amaze me.

Connor

connor wrote:I'd say these are fairly convincing "pockets."

Medical science, you amaze me.

Connor

I don't know. I might start looking for an Adam's apple. My concern was how does this opening clean itself, since it would not have the natural methods in place. I will give them that it is some neat origami, but I do not think it compares to the real thing by any metric.

matthew wrote:Ok I've been watching this thread, and at this point I'll say that you are correct, Steve, when you say that some people are born with birth defects that give them malformed genitalia or gross hormonal inbalances. There's nothing wrong with corrective surgery or other medical treatment to fix these defects because that's what they are- defects. They are comparable to being born with a cleft palate.

On the other hand, I really don't think most people that undergo a "sex change" (a contradiction in terms) are born with malformed genitalia or even gross hormonal problems. They are usually adults with more or less normal bodies who for one reason or another hate their sexuality and will go so far as to mutilate themselves in an attempt to "fix" what they perceive is wrong with them. In reality however, people are born either male or female...persons with malformed genitalia or hormonal abnormalities are just that, they are abnormal in the physiological sense. To say that their bodies are "normal" is like saying that it is normal to be born without limbs. This isn't a lack of compassion on my part for those unfortunate people...hardly, and I hope that medical science can do all it in its power to help these folks. All I am trying to say is that male are female is the fundamental dichotomy in the human species. It's the norm, and our own sexuality is a gift that should be a source of great happiness, not loathing, hatred and narcissism as is the case with the vast majority of the "transgendered" population.

How many transgendered people have you personally spoke with about this subject, Matthew? Because you sound to me like someone who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

matthew wrote: It's the norm, and our own sexuality is a gift that should be a source of great happiness, not loathing, hatred and narcissism as is the case with the vast majority of the "transgendered" population.

How big is Doylestown anyway? Ever been anywhere else?

Are you 15?

Linus Van Pelt wrote:I don't get it. We live in this fucked-up system where people are defined in large part based on their genitals. This is fine for some people, even some people who realize that the system is fucked-up, but some people have a real problem with it. But instead of saying:
"Hey society! It is fucked up that you define me in large part based on my genitals! I want to be defined differently, so please don't define me based on my genitals! I would like to define myself for a change!"
They say:
"Hey society! Please continue to define me based on my genitals! In order to change the way you define me, I am going to actually change my genitals for you and play into the hands of this fucked-up system! Please continue to define me, because I find it to difficult to define myself! It's actually easier to change my genitals!"

I think a man only feels that he was supposed to be a woman (or vice versa) because of what got put into his head about what a woman (or man) is supposed to be.

I don't know, this all seems pretty insensitive, I guess, but I really don't get it; it just seems like playing into a fucked-up system that will continue to hurt you.

If definition by genitals were a fucked-up system invented by society, how did every mammal and most other vertebrates pick it up so quickly?