I'm very much with you clocker bob, and steve's got a good point regarding the leftist's lose-lose situation when criticising capitalist society. But anyhows, that's just my two cents; what I find more interesting about Chomsky than any other modern intellectual I've come accross is that his politics are a logical result of his linguistic theory. He really is a polemecist of the highest order, with a very, very comprehensive model of human reason and nature which informs his political assertions in a direct and lucid fashion. That in itself I have a lot of respect for. As a philosophy major I very rarely came accross thinkers who were so thorough and coherent.

As far as I can tell, Chomsky is an excellent linguist. I find his writing pretty clear and lucid. I may even have a crack at explaining generative grammar if I can find the intellectual energy! But anyhows, what I really want to say is that if you embrace his linguistic theory, then you'll be happy to agree with the following propositions:

1) intellectual progress is instantiated in human rationality; typical languages (i.e. spoken languages) may harbour such rationality in any given statement, but it's not going to be so evident as the reasoning one might find in, for example, an algaebraic language.

2) what passes for "the truth" is more than often that which is coherent rather than that which corresponds to an acutal state of affairs;

3) By careful attention to language usage and our linguistic abilities we have the best chance not only of communicating, translating, explaining lucidly and justly, but also of noticing when we mistake somethng as true simply because it fits in to a coherent system rather than corresponding to any actual state of affairs.

From there a healthy skepticism about public use of language, accteped social norms, etc is a logical step.

I don't think of Chomsky as a saint, nor would I claim to know his oeuvre comprehensively enough to offer him my wholehearted support. What I won't doubt is that he's a damn clever guy who is worth studying, and if you want to refute him, you'd better pull your brain out of your ass.

And frankly, I couldn't give a fuck how he lives his personal life. I don't recall him ever claiming himself as a model for societal progress, only his ideas.

EatingPanCakesOnHerGrave wrote:Number 3: If you can find anything Chomsky has said about American society in a positive way, I will buy you a stack of pancakes.

What would be the point? There are plenty of people tooting America's horn.

But if it would make you happy:

Noam Chomsky:
"We are lucky that we are in a very free country, the freest country in the world. That means we have more information about what our government does, thinks and plans, than any other country in the world. On the other hand, we are unlucky to be in a highly indoctrinated society. That means to find out the facts about this you have to carry out…. Virtually carry out an individual research project, very much like trying to find out what public opinion is."

sparky wrote:Having read this thread, I'd like to read some Chomsky. He seems to upset people in the right sort of way. But I have no idea where to start. Any recommendations for a starter?

Hegemony or Survival : America's Quest for Global Dominance

clocker bob wrote:
Number one, please don't quote previous posts in their entirety just to add a brief rebuttal

EatingPanCakesOnHerGrave wrote:Number 1 Bob: Don't dictate to others what they are supposed to do as if you were the moderator of this board. It is an authoritative tone and yet you want to call me a fascist?

It was a courteous reminder of generally-accepted usenet protocol ( and I said please ). Thankfully, the EA board displays quoted text in white bubbles and we're not in the indented arrow world of old-time usenet. But do what you want.

EatingPanCakesOnHerGrave wrote:Number 2: I am currently at work and don't have a lot of time to get more in depth at the moment so don't make assumptions. When I have the extra free time I will follow up on this. As for "wedging" Chomsky, I think some of his viewpoints are "wedged" in or narrow minded in regards to foreign policy but more on that later when I have the time.

Well, thanks for coming to the argument before you were prepared.

Chomsky's viewpoints "wedged in"?

I really don't comprehend what you're trying to say and i don't think it's my fault. I think you're just trying to give the impression of having a more nuanced position than you actually have, when you could save time by encapsulating it as:

"Chomsky is this guy who is anti-American and I read in a book that he has a big house so he is a big phony and now I have a lot to say about Chomsky, too."

EatingPanCakesOnHerGrave wrote:Number 3: If you can find anything Chomsky has said about American society in a positive way, I will buy you a stack of pancakes.

This gets funnier and funnier. Now Chomsky must praise American society to become a serious thinker in your estimation? What a crazy test. Bet if he did, you'd find his lifestyle a whole lot less fraudulent though, wouldn't you?

EatingPanCakesOnHerGrave,

please give bob his pancakes.

Champion Rabbit wrote:

sparky wrote:Having read this thread, I'd like to read some Chomsky. He seems to upset people in the right sort of way. But I have no idea where to start. Any recommendations for a starter?

Hegemony or Survival : America's Quest for Global Dominance

Cheers!

sparky wrote:

Champion Rabbit wrote:

sparky wrote:Having read this thread, I'd like to read some Chomsky. He seems to upset people in the right sort of way. But I have no idea where to start. Any recommendations for a starter?

Hegemony or Survival : America's Quest for Global Dominance

Cheers!

Sparky,

There's some Chomsky lectures(audio/video)in the MIT lecture archive:

MIT World

Well worth checking.

clocker bob wrote: really don't comprehend what you're trying to say and i don't think it's my fault. I think you're just trying to give the impression of having a more nuanced position than you actually have, when you could save time by encapsulating it as:

"Chomsky is this guy who is anti-American and I read in a book that he has a big house so he is a big phony and now I have a lot to say about Chomsky, too."

Once again you are making broad assumptions based on very little, about myself or my opinion which I will digress at more length when I have the chance soon. I felt like this was bait to try and attack my "integrity" when I don't take message boards that seriously.

clocker bob wrote: If you can find anything Chomsky has said about American society in a positive way, I will buy you a stack of pancakes.

This gets funnier and funnier. Now Chomsky must praise American society to become a serious thinker in your estimation? What a crazy test. Bet if he did, you'd find his lifestyle a whole lot less fraudulent though, wouldn't you?

No but I like my opinions to be relatively unbiased and not fit a specific agenda or broad mindset. I happen to love my country, faults and everything and that doesn't make me blind. Your condescending attitude once again full of incorrect assumptions.

si-maro wrote:
2) what passes for "the truth" is more than often that which is coherent rather than that which corresponds to an acutal state of affairs;

Definitely.

"The truth" has become as putty-like as opinion, and people are growing to really like this new improved "truth". It's coherent if you're predisposed to want it to be coherent. It's like, "I put these glasses on, and I see everything so clearly!".

And I can sympathize with that craving for order. The world is scary without those "truth" glasses. When you can get all your news coated in honey for you, who wants a hot cup of vinegar from Chomsky? So you can feel perpetually out-numbered and ignored?

It's the opposite of the glasses worn by Roddy Piper in John Carpenter's They Live, the most underappreciated satire of Reaganism starring a professional wrestler ever:

I put these glasses on and I don't see what's going on around me.

What is Noam Chomsky running on about?

But our bombs are Smart- they only strike terrorists.

Our electoral process is perfect- you have your choice of several well-connected millionaires.

See, Exxon/Mobil made 36 billion in the 4th quarter- what more proof do you need that the system is healthier than ever?

The actual state of affairs sucks. The TRUTHTM is where it's at.

nihil wrote:

EatingPanCakesOnHerGrave wrote:Number 3: If you can find anything Chomsky has said about American society in a positive way, I will buy you a stack of pancakes.

What would be the point? There are plenty of people tooting America's horn.

But if it would make you happy:

Noam Chomsky:
"We are lucky that we are in a very free country, the freest country in the world. That means we have more information about what our government does, thinks and plans, than any other country in the world. On the other hand, we are unlucky to be in a highly indoctrinated society. That means to find out the facts about this you have to carry out…. Virtually carry out an individual research project, very much like trying to find out what public opinion is."

"Tooting America's horn" those words again seem to foster a condescending tone with the America vs. world mentality and America should loose. Maybe I am reading into it different but that is what I see. Also, that Chomsky quote doesn't count since he included the indoctrination remark. We can't have our cake and eat it to. I don't know what glorious utopia Chomsky is trying to illustrate.