My question is somewhat like the one below under the education title.
Right now I'm attending a community college in High Point, North Carolina that offers an associates degree in sound engineering. The school just got a new building that has 3 different state of the art studios and costed 9.8 million to build. My main professor is TJ Johnson and he's worked with many bands including: rancid, porno for pyros, the distillers, the slackers, joe strummer, iggy pop, tiger army and etc.
What I'm wanting to know is how hard is it to get a job in studios? I know I've got to start with an internship but I don't know if having an associates degree in sound engineering will be enough. The school I'm at now is great and I love it there because it's so laid back and the teachers and equipment are all great but will it be enough? I've been looking at other schools such as Savannah College of Art & Design and The School of the Art Institue of Chicago because they both offer 4 year degrees in sound engineering.
Would I be wasting my time attending other schools if the one I'm at now is fine, just that it only offers an associates degree? I kinda feel like I would be since I'd be going over alot of what I've already learned. My last semester at the school I'm at now I've got to find an internship and so forth. I just don't know what is needed to get jobs in the field.
Any help is much appreciated.
Becoming an engineer-producer
2i just wrote a really, really, really long answer. and then i realized that it was just rambling foolishness. it can all be summed up to a couple bullet points.
#1. screw SAIC so much. if you're leaving home to go to a four year college for sound, go here http://www.colum.edu/
#2. chicago winter is very cold to someone from the carolinas. don't forget that. you'll probably complain about it, but lots of people do, so it's okay. but don't expect sympathy. expect to be called a pussy. also, chicago rules. but the art institute sucks, bad. screw them, lots.
#3. beyond skills, which everybody who plans to work in any professional industry certainly needs, it's about stuff like the right attitude, about perseverence, and very much about making the right connections, often more by serendipity than by force, though the force/endurance method can be effective too if you're not a psycho about it. or so i've heard.
most of my connections in chicago stemmed from [see #1] also, columbia instilling in me a strong sense of "doude, you need to make connections" has allowed me to make lots of connections in a town that's hundreds of miles away where i didn't know one damn person when i moved here. if you go far away to school, you will very much realize the importance of making connections, i promise. otherwise you will be a very sad and lonely person, in a town where you know nobody. it can be a great motivator. if you go to columbia, they will reinforce that theory in your head. and you *will* make connections. and many of them will become professionals in your industry, and similar industries. and you may work alongside each other in those professional industries. or you may say "you are all douchebags! i am going back to carolina, dammit!" and then you'll have the fancy piece of paper from the highly accredited school to show to other carolinans, and etc etc. BTW, just for the record, USC is in california, okay? i know you were first, but trust me, USC = cali.
#4. of major importance... how bad do you want it? there are 1,000 guys lined up for every killer recording studio job, and 100 guys lined up for the alright ones, and 10 guys lined up for the piece of shit ones. so if everybody has the same skills (lets assume that for a minute) then how cool is your personal tone, how much are the guys at the studio gonna want to work with you and bring you into their "family", how much are you willing to do to show yourself and everybody else that you really, really mean it, you ARE the guy for the job. but don't be a psycho about it. confidence! confidence is a boon! this is where connections come from! cool + confident = connected. it just works out that way over time, so long as you're not antisocial, or even worse, a psycho like i am.
i would say based on your apparent earnestness, and your ability to drop names in a way that isn't out of place (although c'mon, porno for pyros, was that stuff even any good, really?), assuming you've got the skills, i'd totally hire you, *if* i owned a studio. personality is more imporant than a degree, i think, but like i say, i don't own a studio nor do i employ anyone. i just think about stuff. and oddly enough, there are jobs that pay well where that's what you do. think about stuff. go figure.
so this is my abbreviated take on what is needed to get the jobs in the industry. LOL. i do not have those jobs, but rather have had other jobs, because after a very short time of working in a pretty crappy recording studio (a 1-in-10-engineers-want-it tier studio, y'know the ones that are easiest to get into, right after the 1-in-1 studio where you buy shit yourself and it's all you), i came to the conclusion that i really didn't want to record other bands so much as i wanted to record *my* band. and as far as ways to pay the bills, being a recording engineer didn't come across as a very easy one. live work, that's pretty easy to land entry level stuff that isn't *total* shit. post-production audio work, i had a shot at that which i passed on. oh my, confidence is a boon! i was not confident that was the right job for me. it probably wasn't. i am not lacking in confidence, only in sensibility.
so to summarize
"shit, this is the abbreviated take?!?!?!"
arms and legs, degree, knowledge, confidence, magic ears and/or magic brain, connections.
in ascending order of both significance and difficulty to attain. if you don't have the knowledge, then your question isn't "do i need a degree", it's "what's the best way for me to get the knowledge i need to be employable in a kickass studio". you do wanna work in one of the kickass ones, right? the 1-in-1000 ones, not the 1-in-10 shithole with the mackie desk and the ADATs?
the better the studio you wanna work in, the more competition you're up against, the more skill you'll need, the more confidence you'll need, the more likely you're gonna hafta have some magic ears or a magic brain or at least a wand or some shit (heh, i slipped in a boner joke) (HEH, I SAID BONER!), and fuck me if you're not gonna need *SOME* kinda connections to land *the killer* studio job ("the" pronounced like "thee").
be it a successful internship, or that somebody is your uncle, or that your resume is printed on paper made of cocaine or some shit. long story still kinda too long, i don't think it's the degree that convinces the studio owner that *you're the guy*. it may or may not play a role, but i'd bet both of my nuts that the degree itself is not the linchpin. ever. in a kickass studio, anyways.
with all that being said... if you would, read the first five lines of this post again. the first three for their ironic comedic value, and four and five for their relevance.
if you really "want it" (meaning the gig), btw, you won't listen to much of what i've said if it in any way discourages you. that's my take. if you really want it, you'll get something useful out of this big quagmire, and you won't walk away the least bit dissuaded. that's how i'm gonna sleep tonight anyways. that and a big bucket of demarol.
post-post breakdown :
0.002% sage advice
29.008% potentially useful information
40% rambling nonsense and talking about "when *I* was in school"
28% "nice try" at silly-funny-guy
2% drugs references and dick jokes that were spot-on for what a real sound guy woulda said, right? "it's who ya know and who ya blow!! har har har", "if you're getting into recording because you wanna have a babe on each arm and a pile of cocaine this high (hand one foot above console), get out now!" shit like that, right?
and BTW, if you're wondering how what i've said here could possibly resolve logically with what i said in the other thread about getting a job in a studio... my best friend moved to the middle of missouri. the whole "big fish small pond" concept.
#1. screw SAIC so much. if you're leaving home to go to a four year college for sound, go here http://www.colum.edu/
#2. chicago winter is very cold to someone from the carolinas. don't forget that. you'll probably complain about it, but lots of people do, so it's okay. but don't expect sympathy. expect to be called a pussy. also, chicago rules. but the art institute sucks, bad. screw them, lots.
#3. beyond skills, which everybody who plans to work in any professional industry certainly needs, it's about stuff like the right attitude, about perseverence, and very much about making the right connections, often more by serendipity than by force, though the force/endurance method can be effective too if you're not a psycho about it. or so i've heard.
most of my connections in chicago stemmed from [see #1] also, columbia instilling in me a strong sense of "doude, you need to make connections" has allowed me to make lots of connections in a town that's hundreds of miles away where i didn't know one damn person when i moved here. if you go far away to school, you will very much realize the importance of making connections, i promise. otherwise you will be a very sad and lonely person, in a town where you know nobody. it can be a great motivator. if you go to columbia, they will reinforce that theory in your head. and you *will* make connections. and many of them will become professionals in your industry, and similar industries. and you may work alongside each other in those professional industries. or you may say "you are all douchebags! i am going back to carolina, dammit!" and then you'll have the fancy piece of paper from the highly accredited school to show to other carolinans, and etc etc. BTW, just for the record, USC is in california, okay? i know you were first, but trust me, USC = cali.
#4. of major importance... how bad do you want it? there are 1,000 guys lined up for every killer recording studio job, and 100 guys lined up for the alright ones, and 10 guys lined up for the piece of shit ones. so if everybody has the same skills (lets assume that for a minute) then how cool is your personal tone, how much are the guys at the studio gonna want to work with you and bring you into their "family", how much are you willing to do to show yourself and everybody else that you really, really mean it, you ARE the guy for the job. but don't be a psycho about it. confidence! confidence is a boon! this is where connections come from! cool + confident = connected. it just works out that way over time, so long as you're not antisocial, or even worse, a psycho like i am.
i would say based on your apparent earnestness, and your ability to drop names in a way that isn't out of place (although c'mon, porno for pyros, was that stuff even any good, really?), assuming you've got the skills, i'd totally hire you, *if* i owned a studio. personality is more imporant than a degree, i think, but like i say, i don't own a studio nor do i employ anyone. i just think about stuff. and oddly enough, there are jobs that pay well where that's what you do. think about stuff. go figure.
so this is my abbreviated take on what is needed to get the jobs in the industry. LOL. i do not have those jobs, but rather have had other jobs, because after a very short time of working in a pretty crappy recording studio (a 1-in-10-engineers-want-it tier studio, y'know the ones that are easiest to get into, right after the 1-in-1 studio where you buy shit yourself and it's all you), i came to the conclusion that i really didn't want to record other bands so much as i wanted to record *my* band. and as far as ways to pay the bills, being a recording engineer didn't come across as a very easy one. live work, that's pretty easy to land entry level stuff that isn't *total* shit. post-production audio work, i had a shot at that which i passed on. oh my, confidence is a boon! i was not confident that was the right job for me. it probably wasn't. i am not lacking in confidence, only in sensibility.
so to summarize
"shit, this is the abbreviated take?!?!?!"
arms and legs, degree, knowledge, confidence, magic ears and/or magic brain, connections.
in ascending order of both significance and difficulty to attain. if you don't have the knowledge, then your question isn't "do i need a degree", it's "what's the best way for me to get the knowledge i need to be employable in a kickass studio". you do wanna work in one of the kickass ones, right? the 1-in-1000 ones, not the 1-in-10 shithole with the mackie desk and the ADATs?
the better the studio you wanna work in, the more competition you're up against, the more skill you'll need, the more confidence you'll need, the more likely you're gonna hafta have some magic ears or a magic brain or at least a wand or some shit (heh, i slipped in a boner joke) (HEH, I SAID BONER!), and fuck me if you're not gonna need *SOME* kinda connections to land *the killer* studio job ("the" pronounced like "thee").
be it a successful internship, or that somebody is your uncle, or that your resume is printed on paper made of cocaine or some shit. long story still kinda too long, i don't think it's the degree that convinces the studio owner that *you're the guy*. it may or may not play a role, but i'd bet both of my nuts that the degree itself is not the linchpin. ever. in a kickass studio, anyways.
with all that being said... if you would, read the first five lines of this post again. the first three for their ironic comedic value, and four and five for their relevance.
if you really "want it" (meaning the gig), btw, you won't listen to much of what i've said if it in any way discourages you. that's my take. if you really want it, you'll get something useful out of this big quagmire, and you won't walk away the least bit dissuaded. that's how i'm gonna sleep tonight anyways. that and a big bucket of demarol.
post-post breakdown :
0.002% sage advice
29.008% potentially useful information
40% rambling nonsense and talking about "when *I* was in school"
28% "nice try" at silly-funny-guy
2% drugs references and dick jokes that were spot-on for what a real sound guy woulda said, right? "it's who ya know and who ya blow!! har har har", "if you're getting into recording because you wanna have a babe on each arm and a pile of cocaine this high (hand one foot above console), get out now!" shit like that, right?
and BTW, if you're wondering how what i've said here could possibly resolve logically with what i said in the other thread about getting a job in a studio... my best friend moved to the middle of missouri. the whole "big fish small pond" concept.
Becoming an engineer-producer
3SCAD is really expensive, and from what ive heard from a lot of people, you're paying for the name more than your education. their dorms are amazing though.
and savannah stinks... literally. it smells like a fart wherever you go because of some paper mill.
i havent heard anything about thier SE degrees, but i have a friend down there thats a film student, and he loves it.
not that that matters.
-wiggins
im sorry, anything i see that might have something to do with georgia i wanna jump in and respond cause so many of yous guys are from chicago.
and savannah stinks... literally. it smells like a fart wherever you go because of some paper mill.
i havent heard anything about thier SE degrees, but i have a friend down there thats a film student, and he loves it.
not that that matters.
-wiggins
im sorry, anything i see that might have something to do with georgia i wanna jump in and respond cause so many of yous guys are from chicago.
Becoming an engineer-producer
4I got an associates from Indiana University, which is all they offered in multitrack recording at the time. It was an excellent program, but I wish I could g through the program now that it has been upgraded.
IU has seriously improved their audio program since Ive graduated and I highly recommend it. They recently got rid of the associates degree in multitrack recording and replaced with a BA. There is a BA in Classical recording as well. The director of the program, Konrad Strauss has done amazing things there since he was appointed a couple years back. He has done a lot of work in every genre you can think of as a tracking, mixing and mastering engineer, and he is a great instructor. The gear selection there is constantly improving and you get shitloads of hands-on experience (as usual, it's all what you make out of it). good luck.
IU has seriously improved their audio program since Ive graduated and I highly recommend it. They recently got rid of the associates degree in multitrack recording and replaced with a BA. There is a BA in Classical recording as well. The director of the program, Konrad Strauss has done amazing things there since he was appointed a couple years back. He has done a lot of work in every genre you can think of as a tracking, mixing and mastering engineer, and he is a great instructor. The gear selection there is constantly improving and you get shitloads of hands-on experience (as usual, it's all what you make out of it). good luck.
Becoming an engineer-producer
5wiggins wrote:i havent heard anything about thier SE degrees, but i have a friend down there thats a film student, and he loves it.
I have a friend that's in the SE program at SCAD. From what I gather, he really likes it. But he hates Savannah.
Becoming an engineer-producer
6I know I really want to do this for a living. I know it'll be hard as hell but I'm willing to do whatever it takes and learn anything that I need.
If any of you know of good schools besides what has been mentioned please reply.
and yeah, i know chicago is cold and windy as shit. I've been there before because i almost moved there a few years back with my family.
and for those of you that have posted...the schools you listed, do they teach much with analog equipment (16 track 2 inch tape reels and etc)?
most schools i know of only teach on protools or ADAT's but I'm really interested in analog.
If any of you know of good schools besides what has been mentioned please reply.
and yeah, i know chicago is cold and windy as shit. I've been there before because i almost moved there a few years back with my family.
and for those of you that have posted...the schools you listed, do they teach much with analog equipment (16 track 2 inch tape reels and etc)?
most schools i know of only teach on protools or ADAT's but I'm really interested in analog.
Becoming an engineer-producer
7IU has an MCI 2" 16 track, but it 's been out of commission for a while. I think it's getting fixed soon though. They have several Studer 1/4" decks (A810) and the first year is all about 2 track splicing and editing. At least that's how it was when I was there. There is an Ampex ATR-102 1/4" mixdown deck in the studio I believe, but it might be in need of repair also...
There is also a lot of digital stuff, including a Sonic HD system in the main editing/listening room.
mtar
There is also a lot of digital stuff, including a Sonic HD system in the main editing/listening room.
mtar
Becoming an engineer-producer
8pretty much the same goes for Columbia... i managed to get out of there (1992-1996) without ever working digital. i signed up for a class like Digital Workstation or something like that, and dropped it after the first class. and yes, we had to cut and splice analog tape (only 1/4" that i remember).
also, i don't know what things are like today, but when i was there they had at least one 2" 24tk machine that i used quite a bit (audio for the visual medium II involved two teams of three people each using that machine, an 8-tk machine, a 2-tk machine, and a couple video decks, all sync'd together, to do full post-production film work, and it was all hands-on, meaning it was just us three students working the whole rig ourselves, the teacher wasn't even in the building most of the time for that course), and i suspect more big multitrack machines than just that one, too.
shit, they even had some monsterously huge old-school machines that are *mechanically* locked (i forget the name of them), that were used to do sync sound (film and mag-stock, actually) before there was such a thing as time code.
i imagine they haven't ditched all that stuff away since i've been there, but i can't say for sure. and i imagine they're probably quite up to speed on digital stuff, too. i just didn't study any of it when i was there.
also, i don't know what things are like today, but when i was there they had at least one 2" 24tk machine that i used quite a bit (audio for the visual medium II involved two teams of three people each using that machine, an 8-tk machine, a 2-tk machine, and a couple video decks, all sync'd together, to do full post-production film work, and it was all hands-on, meaning it was just us three students working the whole rig ourselves, the teacher wasn't even in the building most of the time for that course), and i suspect more big multitrack machines than just that one, too.
shit, they even had some monsterously huge old-school machines that are *mechanically* locked (i forget the name of them), that were used to do sync sound (film and mag-stock, actually) before there was such a thing as time code.
i imagine they haven't ditched all that stuff away since i've been there, but i can't say for sure. and i imagine they're probably quite up to speed on digital stuff, too. i just didn't study any of it when i was there.
Becoming an engineer-producer
9I assume the film sync machines you're talking about are the flatbed editors. Those things are totally awesome. I actually had to shoot a film and edit it on one of those beasts (thorugh the film department, not the audio department). it was a really cool experience. It took something like 30 hours to cut together a 1.5 minute short with one track for soundtrack and 2 tracks for dialogue. Man, that's where digital editing really comes in handy... It's amazing to me that that's how every single film pre-1994 (or something like that) was edited.
mtar
mtar
Becoming an engineer-producer
10lights of juarez wrote: The School of the Art Institue of Chicago because they both offer 4 year degrees in sound engineering.
SAIC does not offer any sort of Sound Engineering degree - they offer a general BFA or a new MFA with a concentration in Sound. The Sound Department is not focused on Engineering nor is it a traditional music program, instead it takes the idea of Sound as a medium just like video, paint, clay, the body, etc and allows artists to explore less pursued avenues of the sonic arts. The facilities are OK (mostly computer based now, but they have a fantastic Emu modular synth), and courses start with basic tape techniques and then go into computer based composition using tools like Pro Tools, Max/MSP and Supercollider (a damn fine app). The staff and faculty are quite good (I'm friendly with most of them) and include folks like Nic Collins, John Corbett and Lou Mallozzi. There is probably way more theoretical and critical discussion than you will find at most schools, which can either be stimulating or frustrating depending on your point of view. It is vastly different than programs at Columbia College, UIC or Northwestern.
Disclaimer: I have a degree from SAIC and spent 5 years working and teaching there. I also do not recommend attending SAIC right now as the administration are currently running the place into the ground as fast as humanly possible, but that's perhaps another discussion for another day.