Linus Van Pelt wrote:
For some it is symbolism. Others believe that they are literally eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

That seem a bit lame to me. How can something that is supposed to be the Truth, like the bible, be "kind of right"?

Gramsci wrote:

Linus Van Pelt wrote:
For some it is symbolism. Others believe that they are literally eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

That seem a bit lame to me. How can something that is supposed to be the Truth, like the bible, be "kind of right"?

I don't know what you mean by "kind of right." Do you mean that those who interpret certain parts of the Bible as symbolism are not taking the Bible seriously, or that they do not believe that the Bible is the Truth? I don't see an inconsistency. I think both those who believe in transsubstantiation, and those who don't, believe that the Bible is the Truth, and not just "kind of" right. They just differ in interpretation.

Now, if we're not talking about transsubstantiation, and we're talking about all those passages of the Bible that supposed believers just completely ignore, then, yeah, I'm with you: "a bit lame" indeed.

Awful lot of people here saying that they don't give the god stuff any credit, but that they think Jesus was cool. Is no-one of the Nietzche way of thinking, that this way of looking at things is a 'slave morality', a consolation belief specially adapted for ourselves by those of us without power?

Linus Van Pelt wrote:
Now, if we're not talking about transubstantiation, and we're talking about all those passages of the Bible that supposed believers just completely ignore, then, yeah, I'm with you: "a bit lame" indeed.

Yeah, I was. I find religious moderation incredibly dishonest.

kerble wrote:I checked. We didn't.

I sort of did

"I don't care if it rains or freezes/As long as I've got my zombie Jesus."

connor wrote:"I don't care if it rains or freezes/As long as I've got my zombie Jesus."

....sittin' on.....the tombstone of my graaaaaave......
...comes in colors so putrescent
zombie eyes are iridescent...
see right through me and my soul is saaaaaaaved....

He rose from the dead... are we gonna split hairs here, or what?

Andrew L. wrote:

vilna43 wrote:andrew L
what reading brings you to ellul?
I have followed his english works these last years and think him very interesting.

I skim-read The Technological Society (years ago). I came across this specific quote by following a link from one of my favourite blogs, wood s lot.

ellul was an interesting cat: Christian; Marxist; fought in the French Resistance; Anti-Communist; critic of Liberation Theology; anarchist, etc. Bu then, the cross-pollination of theology and radical social theory is characteristic of a lot of radical French philosophy (Derrida's via negativa, Alan badiou's appeal to Paul, de Certeau's Jesuit foundations, etc).

The Marxist-Christian tradition is underrated. Look at South America, for fuck's sake - half the socialism there is driven by a "radical" take on christianity that encourages leftism. And Lars Von Triers -a great leftist polemicist in Europe, but a Christian as well as a Marxist. The idea that christian = right wing is pretty reactionary, I reckon.

I guess the problem is that somewhere along the line, the life of Jesus got co-opted by certain people who have replaced having any sort of moral depth or principles to their own existences with just reciting verses. Values and morality are such that I believe the individual must learn them for himself, because if you cannot understand the why, you will never truly be able to apply them when you most need to. In this respect jesus--->crap.

I do honestly think that if instead of teaching christian principles, we teach reality, what we know, history (as objectively as we can), what we dont know, outer space...in short, the spectrum of human understanding..., and in doing so allow an indivual to culture an appreciation of existence, he will eventually form within himself principles virtually indentical to those preached by jesus in the bible. In this respect, JC---> Not Crap.

The culture around christ has blown up so much that it is practically impossible to be raised christian and actually understand christian principles enough to incorporate them as deeply as any morality that you develop for yourself out of the simple acts of living and thinking. Instead of focusing on understanding these christian values at their root, their reason, you are distracted (and often forbidden) by divinity, the rules, the guilt, the penitence, the politics, and most importantly, as much as you may fight it, by the question of DOES THE LORD UP THERE EVEN EXIST. This answer should be from the start, "we dont know, therefore you MUST act as if this world is your Responsibility".

Some lunatic once asserted that God is Dead, which was not to say that God had abandoned us, but that we must abandon him. We have outgrown the concept of God and it is only dragging us back. The finally thrust in pushing the archaic notion of 'god' off us is going to be very, VERY difficult for this society. Its going to get worse before it gets better, kind of like curing syphilis with a malaria-induced fever. It's necessary, though, so lets fucking get it over with and move on.