Midnight Oil

crap
Total votes: 17 (52%)
not crap
Total votes: 16 (48%)
Total votes: 33

band: midnight oil

51
Gramsci wrote:It's the only thing they've got going for them.


I don't argue about musical taste as a rule because it is like arguing about one's favorite colo[u]r, so I respect your opinion as far as their music is concerned. Place Without a Postcard and 10,9,8... were quite frankly landmark records for me and part of the reason I started playing rock when I was 13 or so...you can quote me on that. I've quite frankly listened to those albums hundreds of times. After those records, their music get spotty; occasional gems amidst alot of not so memorable tunes.

You asked me a rather loaded question about Jesus' Second Coming. I have no answer to your question because....I dunno. Go to your nearest Catholic church and visit Him. He's quite literally there.....and you can quote me on that remark as well. Ask Him about it [scroll to chapter 24, verse 36.]
Last edited by matthew_Archive on Fri May 19, 2006 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

band: midnight oil

52
What do you care about in music? I am not asking this to be provocative, I'm curious about what qualities you value in a band.


The short (and stupid) answer is - I don't know.

It's far easier to say what you think is CRAP and why than to explain why you like something... in my view anyway.

Some of the things I like though are:

I like songs that sound spontaneous... I know that they're not, but I like them to sound like that - like there was a flash of brilliance and it came together. Like a good play or a poem feels when it's read - I don't want to know that the writer took a year to produce it and pained over every word. I don't want music that seems manufactured or constructed. I don't want to see the artiface behind the art.

I like bands that look at things differently than what I would, or approach something in a new way. I like to be surprised.

I want to feel that this (the song) is essential. That it's the bands or the artist's honest expression of an idea or feeling or whatever. That it exists just for itself. That if I hadn't been there to listen to it or buy the album or see the performance it would have happened anyway because artists wanted to do it just for the buzz of doing it, or for the 'need' to say whatever it is they're saying.

I like things that make me want to dance.

I think that eventually it comes down to having some kind of a 'gut reaction' to any art. I like things that provoke a response (well, almost any response but boredom). The Oils just don't do that.

band: midnight oil

53
matthew wrote: Go to your nearest Catholic church and visit Him. He's quite literally there.....and you can quote me on that remark as well.


Ok, but he isn't really Matty is he? I think deep down we both know that. I put it to you that you don't really belief all this nonsense, but that you believe in the idea of belief.

I suggest you read some Daniel Dennett if you need answers as to why religion is unnecessary for morality and in most cases is the antithesis of morality. Take away faith and the morality remains, it is evolved, just like everything else.
Reality

Popular Mechanics Report of 9-11

NIST Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster

band: midnight oil

54
Gramsci wrote:
Take away faith and the morality remains, it is evolved, just like everything else.


I've never read any Daniel Dennett. Is he really an advocate of something like "evolutionary morality" (following evolutionary psychology)? What a joke, if so. How does moral evolution account for the Holocaust?

In strictly evolutionary terms, there are worms that are more robust and successful than the human species. What's morality got to do with it?

Evolutionary theories are often cooked up into just-so stories that are nearly as monological and absurd as creationist fantasies. Evolutionary morality? The more "advanced" we become, the less sustainable our mode of existence is. Morality's not in it.

Stephen Jay Gould wrote:Daniel Dennett's 1995 book, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, presents itself as the ultra[-Darwinists] philosophical manifesto of pure adaptationism. Dennett explains the strict adaptationist view well enough, but he defends a miserly and blinkered picture of evolution in assuming that all important phenomena can be explained thereby. His limited and superficial book reads like a caricature of a caricature—for if Richard Dawkins has trivialized Darwin's richness by adhering to the strictest form of adaptationist argument in a maximally reductionist mode, then Dennett, as Dawkins's publicist, manages to convert an already vitiated and improbable account into an even more simplistic and uncompromising doctrine. If history, as often noted, replays grandeurs as farces, and if T.H. Huxley truly acted as "Darwin's bulldog," then it is hard to resist thinking of Dennett, in this book, as "Dawkins's lapdog."

Dennett bases his argument on three images or metaphors, all sharing the common error of assuming that conventional natural selection, working in the adaptationist mode, can account for all evolution by extension—so that the entire history of life becomes one grand solution to problems in design. "Biology is engineering," Dennett tells us again and again. In a devastating review, published in the leading professional journal Evolution, and titled "Dennett's Dangerous Idea," H. Allen Orr notes:

His review of attempts by biologists to circumscribe the role of natural selection borders on a zealous defense of panselectionism. It is also absurdly unfair…. Dennett fundamentally misunderstands biologists' worries about adaptationism. Evolutionists are essentially unanimous that—where there is "intelligent Design"—it is caused by natural selection…. Our problem is that, in many adaptive stories, the protagonist does not show dead-obvious signs of Design.


In his first metaphor, Dennett describes Darwin's dangerous idea of natural selection as a "universal acid"—to honor both its ubiquity and its power to corrode traditional Western beliefs. Speaking of adaptation, natural selection's main consequence, Dennett writes: "It plays a crucial role in the analysis of every biological event at every scale from the creation of the first self-replicating macromolecule on up." I certainly accept the acidic designation—for the power and influence of the idea of natural selection does lie in its radical philosophical content—but few biologists would defend the blithe claim for ubiquity. If Dennett chooses to restrict his personal interest to the engineering side of biology—the part that natural selection does construct—then he is welcome to do so. But he may not impose this limitation upon others, who know that the record of life contains many more evolutionary things than are dreamt of in Dennett's philosophy.

Natural selection does not explain why many evolutionary transitions from one nucleotide to another are neutral, and therefore nonadaptive. Natural selection does not explain why a meteor crashed into the earth 65 million years ago, setting in motion the extinction of half the world's species. As Orr points out, Dennett's disabling parochialism lies most clearly exposed in his failure to discuss the neutral theory of molecular evolution, or even to mention the name of its founder, the great Japanese geneticist Motoo Kimura—for few evolutionary biologists would deny that this theory ranks among the most interesting and powerful adjuncts to evolutionary explanation since Darwin's formulation of natural selection. You don't have to like the idea, but how can you possibly leave it out?

In a second metaphor, Dennett continually invokes an image of cranes and skyhooks. In his reductionist account of evolution, cranes build the good design of organisms upward from nature's physicochemical substrate. Cranes are good. Natural selection is evolution's basic crane; all other cranes (sexual reproduction, for example) act as mere auxiliaries to boost the speed or power of natural selection in constructing organisms of good design. Skyhooks, on the other hand, are spurious forms of special pleading that reach down from the numinous heavens and try to build organic complexity with ad hoc fallacies and speculations unlinked to other proven causes. Skyhooks, of course, are bad. Everything that isn't natural selection, or an aid to the operation of natural selection, is a skyhook.

If you think that I am being simplistic or unfair to Dennett in this characterization, read his book and see if you can detect anything more substantial in this metaphor. I could only find a rhetorical stick for beating pluralists into line. Can't Dennett see that a third (and correct) option exists to his oddly dichotomous Hobson's choice: either accept the idea of one basic crane with auxiliaries, or believe in skyhooks. May I suggest that the platform of evolutionary explanation houses an assortment of basic cranes, all helping to build the edifice of life's history in its full grandeur (not only the architecture of well-engineered organisms). Natural selection may be the biggest crane with the largest set of auxiliaries, but Kimura's theory of neutralism is also a crane; so is punctuated equilibrium; so is the channelling of evolutionary change by developmental constraints. "In my father's house are many mansions"—and you need a lot of cranes to build something so splendid and variegated.

For his third metaphor—though he would demur and falsely label the claim as a fundamental statement about causes—Dennett describes evolution as an "algorithmic process." Algorithms are abstract rules of calculation, and fully general in making no reference to particular content. In Dennett's words: "An algorithm is a certain sort of formal process that can be counted on—logically—to yield a certain sort of result whenever it is 'run' or instantiated." If evolution truly works by an algorithm, then all else in Dennett's simplistic system follows: we need only one kind of crane to supply the universal acid.

I am perfectly happy to allow—indeed I do not see how anyone could deny—that natural selection, operating by its bare-bones mechanics, is algorithmic: variation proposes and selection disposes. So if natural selection builds all of evolution, without the interposition of auxiliary processes or intermediary complexities, then I suppose that evolution is algorithmic too. But—and here we encounter Dennett's disabling error once again—evolution includes so much more than natural selection that it cannot be algorithmic in Dennett's simple calculational sense.

Yet Dennett yearns to subsume all the phenomenology of nature under the limited aegis of adaptation as an algorithmic result of natural selection. He writes: "Here, then, is Darwin's dangerous idea: the algorithmic level is the level that best accounts for the speed of the antelope, the wing of the eagle, the shape of the orchid, the diversity of species, and all the other occasions for wonder in the world of nature" (Dennett's italics). I will grant the antelope's run, the eagle's wing, and much of the orchid's shape—for these are adaptations, produced by natural selection, and therefore legitimately in the algorithmic domain. But can Dennett really believe his own imperialistic extensions? Is the diversity of species no more than a calculational consequence of natural selection? Can anyone really believe, beyond the hype of rhetoric, that "all the other occasions for wonder in the world of nature" flow from adaptation?

Perhaps Dennett only gets excited when he can observe adaptive design, the legitimate algorithmic domain; but such an attitude surely represents a blinkered view of nature's potential interest. I regard the neutral substitution of nucleotides as an "occasion for wonder in the world of nature." And I marvel at the probability that the impact of a meteor wiped out dinosaurs and gave mammals a chance. If this contingent event had not occurred, and imparted a distinctive pattern to the evolution of life, we would not be here to wonder about anything at all!


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1151

band: midnight oil

56
Andrew L. wrote:
Gramsci wrote:
Take away faith and the morality remains, it is evolved, just like everything else.


I've never read any Daniel Dennett. Is he really an advocate of something like "evolutionary morality" (following evolutionary psychology)? What a joke, if so. How does moral evolution account for the Holocaust?



Andrew, as always an enormous cut and paste article, albeit interesting. From the Darwinist-Atheist perspective how can anything be something other than evolved? So you think everything except morality is evolved, somehow this gets to escape the natural world? To me that seems to be as ridiculous as the notion of a all powerful, all good "god" in the context of the Holocaust.
Reality

Popular Mechanics Report of 9-11

NIST Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster

band: midnight oil

57
Andrew L. wrote:
Gramsci wrote:
Take away faith and the morality remains, it is evolved, just like everything else.


I've never read any Daniel Dennett. Is he really an advocate of something like "evolutionary morality" (following evolutionary psychology)? What a joke, if so. How does moral evolution account for the Holocaust?

In strictly evolutionary terms, there are worms that are more robust and successful than the human species. What's morality got to do with it?

Evolutionary theories are often cooked up into just-so stories that are nearly as monological and absurd as creationist fantasies. Evolutionary morality? The more "advanced" we become, the less sustainable our mode of existence is. Morality's not in it.

Stephen Jay Gould wrote:Daniel Dennett's 1995 book, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, presents itself as the ultra[-Darwinists] philosophical manifesto of pure adaptationism. Dennett explains the strict adaptationist view well enough, but he defends a miserly and blinkered picture of evolution in assuming that all important phenomena can be explained thereby. His limited and superficial book reads like a caricature of a caricature—for if Richard Dawkins has trivialized Darwin's richness by adhering to the strictest form of adaptationist argument in a maximally reductionist mode, then Dennett, as Dawkins's publicist, manages to convert an already vitiated and improbable account into an even more simplistic and uncompromising doctrine. If history, as often noted, replays grandeurs as farces, and if T.H. Huxley truly acted as "Darwin's bulldog," then it is hard to resist thinking of Dennett, in this book, as "Dawkins's lapdog."

Dennett bases his argument on three images or metaphors, all sharing the common error of assuming that conventional natural selection, working in the adaptationist mode, can account for all evolution by extension—so that the entire history of life becomes one grand solution to problems in design. "Biology is engineering," Dennett tells us again and again. In a devastating review, published in the leading professional journal Evolution, and titled "Dennett's Dangerous Idea," H. Allen Orr notes:

His review of attempts by biologists to circumscribe the role of natural selection borders on a zealous defense of panselectionism. It is also absurdly unfair…. Dennett fundamentally misunderstands biologists' worries about adaptationism. Evolutionists are essentially unanimous that—where there is "intelligent Design"—it is caused by natural selection…. Our problem is that, in many adaptive stories, the protagonist does not show dead-obvious signs of Design.


In his first metaphor, Dennett describes Darwin's dangerous idea of natural selection as a "universal acid"—to honor both its ubiquity and its power to corrode traditional Western beliefs. Speaking of adaptation, natural selection's main consequence, Dennett writes: "It plays a crucial role in the analysis of every biological event at every scale from the creation of the first self-replicating macromolecule on up." I certainly accept the acidic designation—for the power and influence of the idea of natural selection does lie in its radical philosophical content—but few biologists would defend the blithe claim for ubiquity. If Dennett chooses to restrict his personal interest to the engineering side of biology—the part that natural selection does construct—then he is welcome to do so. But he may not impose this limitation upon others, who know that the record of life contains many more evolutionary things than are dreamt of in Dennett's philosophy.

Natural selection does not explain why many evolutionary transitions from one nucleotide to another are neutral, and therefore nonadaptive. Natural selection does not explain why a meteor crashed into the earth 65 million years ago, setting in motion the extinction of half the world's species. As Orr points out, Dennett's disabling parochialism lies most clearly exposed in his failure to discuss the neutral theory of molecular evolution, or even to mention the name of its founder, the great Japanese geneticist Motoo Kimura—for few evolutionary biologists would deny that this theory ranks among the most interesting and powerful adjuncts to evolutionary explanation since Darwin's formulation of natural selection. You don't have to like the idea, but how can you possibly leave it out?

In a second metaphor, Dennett continually invokes an image of cranes and skyhooks. In his reductionist account of evolution, cranes build the good design of organisms upward from nature's physicochemical substrate. Cranes are good. Natural selection is evolution's basic crane; all other cranes (sexual reproduction, for example) act as mere auxiliaries to boost the speed or power of natural selection in constructing organisms of good design. Skyhooks, on the other hand, are spurious forms of special pleading that reach down from the numinous heavens and try to build organic complexity with ad hoc fallacies and speculations unlinked to other proven causes. Skyhooks, of course, are bad. Everything that isn't natural selection, or an aid to the operation of natural selection, is a skyhook.

If you think that I am being simplistic or unfair to Dennett in this characterization, read his book and see if you can detect anything more substantial in this metaphor. I could only find a rhetorical stick for beating pluralists into line. Can't Dennett see that a third (and correct) option exists to his oddly dichotomous Hobson's choice: either accept the idea of one basic crane with auxiliaries, or believe in skyhooks. May I suggest that the platform of evolutionary explanation houses an assortment of basic cranes, all helping to build the edifice of life's history in its full grandeur (not only the architecture of well-engineered organisms). Natural selection may be the biggest crane with the largest set of auxiliaries, but Kimura's theory of neutralism is also a crane; so is punctuated equilibrium; so is the channelling of evolutionary change by developmental constraints. "In my father's house are many mansions"—and you need a lot of cranes to build something so splendid and variegated.

For his third metaphor—though he would demur and falsely label the claim as a fundamental statement about causes—Dennett describes evolution as an "algorithmic process." Algorithms are abstract rules of calculation, and fully general in making no reference to particular content. In Dennett's words: "An algorithm is a certain sort of formal process that can be counted on—logically—to yield a certain sort of result whenever it is 'run' or instantiated." If evolution truly works by an algorithm, then all else in Dennett's simplistic system follows: we need only one kind of crane to supply the universal acid.

I am perfectly happy to allow—indeed I do not see how anyone could deny—that natural selection, operating by its bare-bones mechanics, is algorithmic: variation proposes and selection disposes. So if natural selection builds all of evolution, without the interposition of auxiliary processes or intermediary complexities, then I suppose that evolution is algorithmic too. But—and here we encounter Dennett's disabling error once again—evolution includes so much more than natural selection that it cannot be algorithmic in Dennett's simple calculational sense.

Yet Dennett yearns to subsume all the phenomenology of nature under the limited aegis of adaptation as an algorithmic result of natural selection. He writes: "Here, then, is Darwin's dangerous idea: the algorithmic level is the level that best accounts for the speed of the antelope, the wing of the eagle, the shape of the orchid, the diversity of species, and all the other occasions for wonder in the world of nature" (Dennett's italics). I will grant the antelope's run, the eagle's wing, and much of the orchid's shape—for these are adaptations, produced by natural selection, and therefore legitimately in the algorithmic domain. But can Dennett really believe his own imperialistic extensions? Is the diversity of species no more than a calculational consequence of natural selection? Can anyone really believe, beyond the hype of rhetoric, that "all the other occasions for wonder in the world of nature" flow from adaptation?

Perhaps Dennett only gets excited when he can observe adaptive design, the legitimate algorithmic domain; but such an attitude surely represents a blinkered view of nature's potential interest. I regard the neutral substitution of nucleotides as an "occasion for wonder in the world of nature." And I marvel at the probability that the impact of a meteor wiped out dinosaurs and gave mammals a chance. If this contingent event had not occurred, and imparted a distinctive pattern to the evolution of life, we would not be here to wonder about anything at all!


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1151


Mr. L. You never cease to amaze me with your implicit ( and sometimes EXplicit) Whiggishness and your 18th century salon de Paris et London notions regarding science, man, and God. Grab your snuff box.

The book you quote is rubbish. You guys are just arguing amongst yourselves....all because I decided to post about the late band Midnight Oil. And what you argue about has nothing to do with where life originated or where indeed the entire universe originated.

Not to mention, both of you guys REALLY know how to jack a thread.

You, too, are like Gramsci. You are part of that whiggish intellectual tradition that is prevalent in the UK and her former holdings....and I say that out of a fair discernment. Your and Mr. Harrison-Smith are out-dated intellectually. I say this with all due respect.

Catch up.

band: midnight oil

59
matthew wrote:
You, too, are like Gramsci. You are part of that whiggish intellectual tradition that is prevalent in the UK and her former holdings....and I say that out of a fair discernment. Your and Mr. Harrison-Smith are out-dated intellectually. I say this with all due respect.

Catch up.


Yeah Andrew, Iron Age mythology trumps reason every time... it's super-rational.

Seriously Matty. As I said, I genuinely doubt you really believe all of that supernatural mumbo-jumbo. All the "rational" arguments you make have long since passed into the annuals of intellectual discourse, like your cute clinging to the First Clause argument.

Matty, you don't really believe all that claptrap, you belief in the idea of Faith, you feel there is some kind of value or good in believing. The problem is there actually isn't and that is where denial kicks in. You would present a much more... sane -for want of a better word- argument if you didn't try and use science and reason to back up your supernatural beliefs. The Catholic church stopped doing that a few centuries ago when the realised it wasn't a winning method.

Morals are always reflexed in the religion of every culture, whether it be Iron Age Israel or in the rain forests of Brazil. Evolved human behavioral traits, we call morals, develop in context of the culture and the people of these cultures reflex this in their gods and religions. It rather obvious, all you have to is look, and think. Try it, it's fun!
Reality

Popular Mechanics Report of 9-11

NIST Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster

band: midnight oil

60
matthew wrote:
Mr. L. You never cease to amaze me with your implicit ( and sometimes EXplicit) Whiggishness and your 18th century salon de Paris et London notions regarding science, man, and God. Grab your snuff box.


You, too, are like Gramsci. You are part of that whiggish intellectual tradition that is prevalent in the UK and her former holdings....and I say that out of a fair discernment. Your and Mr. Harrison-Smith are out-dated intellectually. I say this with all due respect.

Catch up.


Image

Image


[confidential to Gramsci: so you're saying morality is indexed in the human genome? That there are merely genetic determinants for the moral differences between Genghis Khan and Mao Zedong, Jesus Christ and Mahatma Ghandi? Further, are you saying that individuals of certain cultures are literally "more evolved" than those of others?]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests