My question is, if you're not Arab or Jewish, how can you defend one side or the other?

I used to defend the Palestinians because they seemed to be the wronged and occupied underdog, but then their leaders kind of showed what asshats they are, and the killing continued. Then I defended the Israelis because they have the only "democracy" in that region, but then their leaders kind of showed what asshats they are, and the killing continued. Etc, etc, et fucking cetera.

As a compasionate and empathetic human being I can only feel bad for the innocents who are killed, regardless of their ethnicity or nationality. Every issue raised here for either side is an excuse to blow up or shoot somebody. It makes me sick to my stomach.

So I decided to finally put all my chips on the Tibetans. There's a pet political cause one can really get behind of from the comfort of our lives in the United States. They're Buddhists, they're pacisfists, they're occupied, they're demilitarized and they can kick some serious martial arts ass.

Free Tibet!!!

AlBStern wrote:I agree that Israel is going overboard in their retaliation but feel their response must emphatically state that no good will ever come from kidnappings.

What in your opinion would be a proportionate response that would a) have a chance at being effective and b) not invite similar kidnappings (or what ever you'd prefer to call it) in the future?

There is one thing that they are doing which is correct, which is to refuse to do a prisoner swap. The efficacy of these tactics in the past had led to their being re-used. Other than that, learn from their mistakes in this particular incident.

I'm not being flippant; their current tactics do themselves no good whatsoever, and are more likely to get the hostages killed.

Final post before going home. This mess cannot be sorted out without addressing history, particularly history that exists in living memory.

I feel sorry for Israel in part, as it was the British and Americans who sponsored the original land grab. The Israelis that I've met have been pretty mellow and decent guys, not zealots in any sort (unlike those who pushed for the establishment of a country there in the first place). Israel's existence is a fact which has begun to be accepted by the Arab world. For a brief period, it almost looked as if Iran and Hamas would do this. But a gesture of reparation needs to be made by the Israeli government. It is a body politic that seems to be living in denial of its bloody birth.

AlBStern wrote:

Andrew L. wrote:
I even put *suicide* in italics for you, Phil.

So your defense of intentionally targeting civilians is only for suicide bombers?

That wasn't a defense of suicide bombing.

Suicide bombing is wrong. Killing civilians is wrong. Period. Everyone feel better now?

You suggested there is a fundamental difference of intent between walking into a club and blowing up its patrons on one hand, and sending missiles into civilian neighborhoods on the other. Appealing to the avialable historical evidence, I argue that different folks fighting over a chunk of dirt will use whatever means available. For the weaker, occupied force, history demonstrates that suicide bombs are one such tactic. See the article and quotations I cited.

It's not a moral claim in itself. It's an attempt to demystify tacit appeals to a view that the gang w/ the biggest and best guns occupies the moral highground.

Again, I'm not interested in morality.

I normally try and stay neutral on this one, but it seem as if there is a deliberate attempt by aspects of the Palestine resistance to provoke Israel as much as they can.

It is obviously a minority, but it must be obvious to those doing the kidnapping that Israel wont back down a millimeter and that this is a deliberate attempt to push Israel into a major conflict... again.

To quote "Gladiator", "a people should know when they are conquered".

As long as Israel has nukes and no one else in the region does... forget about Iran, it will never happen, the moment they get remotely close you'll see a massive attack group of Israel fighter-bombers streaming over the boarder turning the installations into vapor.

All nation states are based on violence and imperialism, it's only Israel is just a little newer. so none of us should be casting the first stone when it comes to the state of Israel.

Gramsci wrote:
To quote "Gladiator", "a people should know when they are conquered".

You don't half come out with some hooters sometimes Gramps.

Earwicker wrote:How's about evacuating all the illegal settlements on any land occupied since 1967?

One question: how exactly did Israel end up taking possession of the occupied territories?

I don't recall.

beelzebubbles wrote:we could have a world gladiator tournament to the death! The finale would happen with all the leaders in an all out battle royale. There would be no guns; just swords, spears, knives, kung fu etc.

And we could hold that battle royale in the pleasuredome.

Chapter Two wrote:

Gramsci wrote:
To quote "Gladiator", "a people should know when they are conquered".

You don't half come out with some hooters sometimes Gramps.

I was half taking the piss, but seriously, what is to be gained be mindless resistance? Israel will never back down... ever. As I said, all national states, including the UK, US and all the rest are based on imperialism, violence and domination.

I just think it's a tad hypocritical of Westerners to start getting all high and mighty on Israel when our grandparents and back got up to much worse.

Gramsci wrote:

Chapter Two wrote:

Gramsci wrote:
To quote "Gladiator", "a people should know when they are conquered".

You don't half come out with some hooters sometimes Gramps.

I was half taking the piss, but seriously, what is to be gained be mindless resistance?

Not sure about mindless, but resistance = maintenance of integrity, dignity, self-respect, hope, solidarity...

simmo wrote:Israels being a cunt cos Palestine's been a cunt cos Israel was a cunt cos Palestine was a cunt because Islam was a cunt because the Crusades were a cunt because Christianity was a cunt because people are cunts.

Woot woot.

The complete history of the Israel-Palestine conflict, in less than 50 words.