Adam CR wrote:I call bullshit.

I'll take that call and raise you a "I was wrong, and can be dumbass at times"

Gramsci wrote:

Adam CR wrote:I call bullshit.

I'll take that call and raise you a "I was wrong, and can be dumbass at times"

See above.

galanter wrote:If Israel just concentrated on Hezbollah launch sites they would still be killing women and children. Hezbollah launches from the middle of town...on the roofs of schools...from markets...anywhere and everywhere citizens are found.

This seems to suggest that your thinking runs like this:

'Hizzbullah are firing from within residential areas so if we bomb them civilians will die. As that is the case we may as well kill lots of other civilians who are nowhere near Hizbullah launch sites - even those fleeing areas we told them to flee and those in hospitals and while we're at it we'll bomb clearly marked red cross convoys because some of those medicines may have helped Hizbullah as well as dying babies'


Am I wrong?

Oh and are you suggesting that the UN are allowing Hizzbullah to fire missiles from within their outposts?

And are they firing from Beirut?

Don't be fucking silly.

Hizbullah went into Israel and arrested two soldiers (let me say two of those words again and I'll make them bold for you arrested and soldiers) and the Israeli response has been to target another country's civilian population. (Israel often goes into other's terriitory to kidnap people)If you are supporting that then you are one of the very people you purport to be against.

I'll add to that. If you support the Israeli bombardment of civilian areas you are fucking scum.

To the other fella the Lebanese government has to tip toe around Hizbullah because if they tried to get rid of them they'd spark a civil war.

And Galanter please don't bring up UN resolutions you know where it will go.

And Gramsci - big respect points from the Earwicker camp.

The Code is Almighty wrote:Y'know...fuck all this. I think Israel has a right to defend it's citizens any way that it sees fit. In my eyes this incident, the one that has the world's attention at this particular moment, is because of the fact that Hezbollah crossed into Israel and kidnapped Israelis. I think whatever measures the Israelis deem necessary to get them back are justified. Just because the nation they are in a war with isn't as capable as they are of conducting war doesn't mean they should have to put on the kid gloves in dealing with them. And yes I say nation, because if you don't want to go to war with the neighboring country, you don't let an organization, separate from your own government, with a hard-on for going to war with the neighboring country camp out in your country on the border with the neighboring country. That just seems ridiculously simple to me. It's unfortunate that civilians are dying, but if Lebanon didn't give Hezbollah permission to sit on their border with Israel and poke and prod to see what they could get away with, the world wouldn't have this situation.

Actually, it looks more like Israel kidnapped a doctor and his brother first. Out of their own territory, I think. Look into it a little past Reuters.

The Code is Almighty wrote:Y'know...fuck all this. I think Israel has a right to defend it's citizens any way that it sees fit. In my eyes this incident, the one that has the world's attention at this particular moment, is because of the fact that Hezbollah crossed into Israel and kidnapped Israelis. I think whatever measures the Israelis deem necessary to get them back are justified.

Meanwhile,

BBC wrote:The UN says some 600 people - about a third of them children - have been killed by Israeli action in Lebanon.

nihil wrote:Are you confident that this is really what happened? It seems to me that this is "ridiculously simple" to you for a reason. Keep in mind that Israel did the initial kidnapping (civilians). Take a look at what has been ignored by the mainstream press. I think you might draw a different conclusion.

"Initial kidnapping (civilians)." Newspeak for arresting terrorists who are, in essense, soldiers working out of uniform.

Hezbollah has been building bunkers and gathering up 1000's, or tens of 1000's, of rockets for at least 2 years, and some say it started the day Israel unilaterally left Lebanon.

Hezbollah didn't start this a couple weeks ago. They started it years ago and are internationally recognized as an illegal terrorist army. Most know they are in the pocket of Iran and Syria, and some will even say so.

Cranius wrote:

And look how Europe took the bait. You've been suckered by Iran.
Again.

Please.

You think it was a cooincidence that this all started on the day of the deadline for Iran to respond to various countries (including European countries who have insisted, for years, that negotiation will work with Iran...and keep failing) regarding their nuclear weapons program?

(You de believe, right, that Iran is lying to everyone about their nuclear weapons program?)

Where is that negotiation process now? Where are the Europeans saying "Hey Iran...we haven't forgotten about you!".

Suckered again.

Gramsci wrote:Ok, time to eat some words.

Israel are being total cocks about this. What they are trying to achieve is necessary but they are totally fucking it up, killing innocent people and stirring up a world of shit for everyone.

What they are doing is wrong and fucking stupid.

This change of heart is the result of a long debate with a friend.

I still think Israel has the right to exist and the right to defend themselves, but what they are doing at the moment is short-termist and fucking evil.

Thanks for your time.

And the process of Hezbollah building up fortifications and 10,000's of rockets over a period of years to do the bidding of Iran and Syria, against the peace treaties? Israel pulls out of Lebanon and this is their reward?

You do understand that it is the intent of Hezbollah to draw fire against Lebanese citizens to create internal support and external sympathy right?
How evil is that?

You're being played my friend.

Earwicker wrote:

galanter wrote:If Israel just concentrated on Hezbollah launch sites they would still be killing women and children. Hezbollah launches from the middle of town...on the roofs of schools...from markets...anywhere and everywhere citizens are found.

This seems to suggest that your thinking runs like this:

'Hizzbullah are firing from within residential areas so if we bomb them civilians will die. As that is the case we may as well kill lots of other civilians who are nowhere near Hizbullah launch sites - even those fleeing areas we told them to flee and those in hospitals and while we're at it we'll bomb clearly marked red cross convoys because some of those medicines may have helped Hizbullah as well as dying babies'

I didn't say that. If you read back at the very start of this thread I said I was worried about the bombings in the north. Some of them make sense from a military point of view. I'm not sure they all do. And even if every intent was pure there are bound to be unintended targets hit.

This didn't start with "the arrests" of two Israeli soldiers. (And as a technical matter it's not an arrest if you cross into someone else's country, and by the way something like 8 Israelis were killed in the process).

This is the end result of Hezbollah preparing for the next stage of their intended destruction of Israel. It's been years in the making. It's involved the creation of bunkers and other military facilities, and the import of 10,000's of rockets, sponsored by Iran and Syria. (You remember Syria...the country that occupied Lebanon, was finally driven out, and assasinated the PM as they left?)

If this is the thanks that Israel gets, what possible incentive is there for them to give up any other territory?

How evil is it that Hezbollah is doing the bidding of Iran (to distract the world from their nuclear weapons program) and the Lebanese people have to pay the price?

How evil is it that Hezbollah is intentionally drawing fire into their own civilian population?

galanter wrote:

Gramsci wrote:Ok, time to eat some words.

Israel are being total cocks about this. What they are trying to achieve is necessary but they are totally fucking it up, killing innocent people and stirring up a world of shit for everyone.

What they are doing is wrong and fucking stupid.

This change of heart is the result of a long debate with a friend.

I still think Israel has the right to exist and the right to defend themselves, but what they are doing at the moment is short-termist and fucking evil.

Thanks for your time.

And the process of Hezbollah building up fortifications and 10,000's of rockets over a period of years to do the bidding of Iran and Syria, against the peace treaties? Israel pulls out of Lebanon and this is their reward?

You do understand that it is the intent of Hezbollah to draw fire against Lebanese citizens to create internal support and external sympathy right?
How evil is that?

You're being played my friend.

You're condoning a massacre. Your arguments are akin to Victorian colonialist thought: "We know better. We're killing you and your country for your own good. It's for the best, trust us."

It was an evil lie then, and it is an evil lie now.