scott wrote:

galanter wrote:So you're feeling good about Jones' "proof" that thermite was used?

I thought you thought the world was ultimately unknowable?

On the first, I didn't say anything even remotely resembling that in my post, did I? Please find where I affirmed anyone's "proof" of anything in that post.

And as far as things being unknowable, I have a very good grasp on what is or is not ultimately knowable.

For example, things like "the true motivation of group of people XYZ" is something that is maybe never knowable, unless you are a part of that group, you have been in all manner of discussions with the rest of the group, you have all spoken very openly and honestly and deliberately about what your motivation is, nobody lied, nobody had hidden agendas, etc.

As far as the true motivation of any group in the middle east, Phil, I have no problem saying that it is an unknowable piece of information to (probably all of) the people on the EA Forum, and (probably all of ) the people writing stuff on the internet, etc.

If you wanna get philosophical, and make generalizations about what is or is not knowable, I'd be interested in going there. Start up a thread for that purpose, and we can have at it.

So why change the topic rather than just saying "you know, you're right, Jone's so-call "proof" is crap"?

If I can be allowed to over-generalize a bit, this board suffers from people being more interested in "winning" vague debates than sharing solid information.

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Steven E. Jones wrote:The hypothesis that started my search, that Christ's "other sheep" would have artwork depicting deliberately marked hands, has led to a remarkable conclusion: Hands (and wrists) with clear holes or marks are depicted in the art as well as the hieroglyphic writings of the Maya of Middle America, dating from within about 200 years of the time of Christ. These hands are associated with Itzamna, a kindly Deity associated with healing and teaching the people. He is shown dying in Mayan art, later to be resurrected. Finally, the Maya await the return of this great resurrected Deity in the not-distant future. [See Jones, 99]

These discoveries have provided me a deeper appreciation for the reality of the resurrection of Jesus and of His visit to "other sheep" who heard His voice and saw His wounded hands as did Thomas. My hope is that these new insights will encourage you to seriously consider the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Christ. Why don't you start reading right away? The Apostle Paul said: "Prove all things. Hold fast that which is good." (I Thessalonians 5:21) Why not? I've done this and for me, the Book of Mormon is a remarkable new witness for Christ, standing as a companion to the Bible.

http://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/jones/rel491/handstext%20and%20figures.htm

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Old news, potato head- glad you think that Mormons can't be trusted to understand physics

I said nothing of the sort. That article should be a giant red flag to anyone willing to critically examine Jones' methodology, regardless of his religious agenda.

My original question, which was ignored, was:

Steven E. Jones' so-called "research" is still the linchpin of "scientific evidence" for this movement?

But, instead, you only chose this moment to tell me that it's "old news" (no shit) and call me "potato head" (was only funny when that guy said it in "Wargames") for no reason.

scott wrote:

galanter wrote:This is a chain of evidence that would be laughed out of any court. How does he know her story is true? How does she know the dirt was from the 9/11 site and not added during the subsequent moving of the girder? How many stops did this girder make along the way? Was it first trucked off to a landfill somewhere?

This is an excellent point if you're looking to establish 9/11 as an inside job: the "chain of evidence" you refer to. It's kinda *astonishing*. The govt has taken the initiative to collect all the tapes from surveillance cameras at hotels and businesses around the pentagon, which they analyze (in theory) and guard under lock and key and don't release even though they really should... and yet the evidence from the trade centers is... where? "Trucked off to a landfill" is one of your suggestions. All I've ever heard was that it was removed very expeditiously by a mafia contractor and then melted for scrap. I can't imagine either of those things are true... what *actually* happened with it?

Please put forth a plausible explanation as to why all of this critical evidence of one of the most relevant crimes in the history of the modern world would be destroyed or put in a landfill or taken off to wherever. Why was it not collected and analyzed like the remains of the crashed Space Shuttle(s), or TWA 800, or etc, which are significantly less relevant.

It dawned on me that maybe this is one of the mysterious questions I've refused to answer. Originally the question looked like an attempt to change the topic and ignore a point I was trying to press...the laughable physical evidence in a specific occasion that was being presented as "proof" that thermite brought down the towers.

Then I forgot about it. But now I've remembered.

Scott, I'm not sure I'm going to have an answer to this that you will like or that even I will like.

The first thing to remember, though, is that lack of evidence...and sometimes even lack of proper evidence collection...is not proof of anything. It's missing data, not data that affirms this or that.

I've heard that the FBI (or whomever) collected all the local tapes and then locked them up and nobody is allowed to see them. A few things about this. First, I'm not sure this is even true. I'm not saying it isn't, I just don't know. Second, ifit is true there may be harmless reasons why this is so. For example, unless the tapes are evidence in an actual trial it may be that they remain private property and the FBI has no right to distribute them.

Or maybe, just maybe, the Pentagon has various classified protection devices (robotic anti-aircraft guns on the roof...whatever) that were triggered by the event, and they are trying to suppress public exposure of them.

Bottom line...I don't know but I can see lots of possibilities besides a neo-con conspiracy to fake an attack to cause fear and so on.

As for the wreckage of the towers. I think I mentioned before that the mood in NYC was not "hey...this is a *crime scene* that requires investigation" but rather "let's get this mess cleaned up...it's good therapy and God knows we need to channel our anger and grief into something constructive".

In addition to this most folks thought of the site not as a crime scene but rather the site of a wartime attack. After Pearl Harbor I doubt anyone said "hey, we've got a crime scene here! Get out the yellow Police tape and call CSI".

There were thousands of people who saw the planes hit the buildings in real time, and what was left was beyond any hope of reconstruction.

Things that were collected and investigated were body parts and various papers and personal items. This wasn't part of an investigation as to the nature of the attack (or crime), but mostly an attempt to identify the dead.

I wouldn't be surprised, knowing the corruption in the building trades in NYC, if there was some form of bribery or kickbacks in the process of clearing the site. I seem to recall that one motivation for melting down the remaining girders (with some notable exceptions for memorials) was to prevent tacky exploitation of the remains. Idiots on Ebay selling chunks of remaining metal and the like.

Again, I can't really give a definitive answer as to exactly why the metal wasn't gathered up for lab analysis. Given the tone described about I think it mostly never crossed anyones mind. Just about everyone thought it was obvious what happened. Just about everyone still does.

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So I looked into the FBI holding the Flight 77 security camera (etc) video tapes a bit. Lacking additional information I personally find the FBI's withholding of the video tapes objectionable. Seems like nearly 5 years later they can give up the goods.

But it's often typical BS FBI behavior to cling tightly to info and make people work really hard to get it released. I've seen this before and then after months or years...the stuff comes out and it's nothing. And you wonder why it was all kept secret for so long. (e.g. JFK records).

The obvious conspiracy theory is by the time the records have been fully released they have also been cleansed...or synthesized or photoshopped or whatever...

The less obvious conspiracy theory is that Flight 77 is a red herring. Some "investigators" are now opining that Flight 77 really did plow into the side of the Pentagon (or the synthesized/photoshopped version of the story), and the cabal is letting time pass...letting conspiratorial expectations grow...letting the story reach Fox and CNN....and then BAM! The Fed's release the tapes and they show exactly what "they" have been saying all along.

And the entire 9/11 conspiracy theory factory is undermined.

This double reverse conspiracy theory is very clever. Now the conspiracy movement has inoculated itself, and if the video tapes get released and they show Flight 77 plowing into the Pentagon...well that just proves that the conspiracy is in full effect!!

Ain't dat sump'in?

Anyway, I hope those putting pressure on the FBI are successful and the tapes get released...unless there really is a security interest, in which case some kind of checks and balances mechanism should audit situations like this. Just not sure how it works.

As for that poll...well I've seen polls regarding UFO's, evolution and intelligent design, the power of prayer, and so on. It's still disappointing.

Meanwhile the full transcripts of the FAA air traffic controllers were released...to Vanity Fair? What the heck is that about? They seem to show that testimony that shoot-down discussions took place and fighters were properly dispatched in time to deal with the last jet was false. That in fact it was total chaos until after the last jet was down.

This doesn't point to conspiracy...it points to incompetence and retro-spin-doctoring that then casts a shadow and makes people think there is a conspiracy...because how could important people be so stupid? Obviously there is a hidden logic to be uncovered.

In other words they cover up incompetence, and the cover up makes people think something even more sinister must be going on. (Another page from the JFK conspiracy).

Finally...there are a couple videos that show the plane going into the side of the Pentagon on You Tube. The problem is that neither camera catches the plane in mid air. But on both you can see the nose of the plane entering the frame. (The next frame is an explosion that reveals no details.) It *sorta* looks like a big passenger jet nose. But there are so few pixels it's really hard to say. It's a small detail in a small frame.