bubbleboy wrote:
1. Teach the drummer to actually hit em right. That John Bonham sound all drummers go on and on about? Because he had finnese with the cymbals and hat. Get the drummer to lay off em and, naturally, the rest of the kit will sound louder.

Drum lessons have no place in a recording session. And even if the drummer sucks, and/or the engineer is a drummer himself, the engineer has no business teaching a drummer how to hit his cymbals.

Ive found that telling a musician how to play their instrument is not productive, and if it doesn't piss em off it usually just hinders their performance. It is the engineer's job to work around the musician, not the other way around.

mtar

Drum lessons have no place in a recording session. And even if the drummer sucks, and/or the engineer is a drummer himself, the engineer has no business teaching a drummer how to hit his cymbals.

Ive found that telling a musician how to play their instrument is not productive, and if it doesn't piss em off it usually just hinders their performance. It is the engineer's job to work around the musician, not the other way around.

i wholeheartedly agree. aside from making you look like a jerk and generally wasting your client's time and money telling them what to do, its a distraction from making an accurate representation of what the band sounds like as a whole.

i wouldnt have any problems telling a drummer that part of the reason his drums dont sound like he wants them is the way he plays, but its not my job to tell the doude how to play.

besides, theres no real way to tell a drummer he's doing something "wrong" without at least sounding like a complete jerk-off. i actually had an engineer tell me this during a session, had me move my cymbals back because "there was too much bleed." i wanted to fucking punch him in the face. we also spent at least 2 hours trying to make me play to a click and all it did was piss me off and put me 'on tilt' as they say. so, from that experience, i know how not to act towards a band, no matter how bad they are.

bubbleboy wrote:Err on the side of caution Larry? That is the problem with far too many engineers out there. Commitment to tape and confidence in your decisions is paramount. Sound like there's enough hi hat in the overheads? Then don't mic it, same goes for anything. There are way too many mics on kits these days. Some of my favourite kit sounds have been recorded with 2 mics.

I'll mic the hi hat if the track calls for it or if I wanna key gate to it and that's it.

As far as getting the hi hat down in the mics, here's a couple of tips.

1. Teach the drummer to actually hit em right. That John Bonham sound all drummers go on and on about? Because he had finnese with the cymbals and hat. Get the drummer to lay off em and, naturally, the rest of the kit will sound louder.

2. Instead of concentrating on pointing the snare mic at what you wanna record, concentrate on pointing it away from the hat, remember, cardioid mics have quite a large area where the pick up sound and only a small area of rejection.

Gee whiz - what a cavalier attitude . Still, I support your right to express your viewpoints here.

I don't have any preconceived notions about how to mic a hi-hat or any instrument for that matter. And I don't claim to be an expert either. There are people working in this industry that have forgotten more than I'll ever know. But I know BS when I hear it. That I'm an expert at.

My responses and suggestions are derived from the standpoint of studio owner who's very livelyhood depends on satisfied clients. The recording methods I choose to use are the result of many successful recording sessions. I get a lot of repeat business so I must be doing something right.

To anyone out there who's paying attention - do the right thing. If you're not sure about something, err on the side of caution. What are we talking about here? Too many mics? Too many tracks? That's almost laughable. I'd much rather have too many choices during mixdown than not enough. But hey. That's just me.

In my studio, the client dictates how their music is supposed to sound. Not the other way around. If they want my opinion I'll give it. Otherwise I keep my piehole shut and concentrate on the task at hand. Engineers who try to push their own personal artistic agenda (and sour attitude) on their clients don't last long in this industry.

Rock on!

To anyone out there who's paying attention - do the right thing. If you're not sure about something, err on the side of caution. What are we talking about here? Too many mics? Too many tracks? That's almost laughable. I'd much rather have too many choices during mixdown than not enough. But hey. That's just me.

Hello Larry,

I have a feeling that if someone is reading, they are most likely paying attention.

I also used to feel that you could never have too many tracks and mics, etc. It seems logical, and "safe", and it is a smart way to learn what works through experimentation A/B-ing, etc... when working on your own stuff, or with friends. Through trial and error I eventually learned what does and what does not work in specific situations, and also learned that getting things right at the source, while tracking, always yeilds better results and proves to be more efficient during mixdown.Using excess mics and excess tracks "just in case" usually ends up wasting time later on during the mixing session. It's important to make solid, confident decisions when tracking so that mixing doesn't suck the life out of you, the client, or their pocketbooks.

thanks
mike

a lot of people jumped on the guy who said to tell the drummer not to play so loudly. I do kind of agree that you can't really be telling him how to play, but that is something good to try and tell them perhaps before they record with your or something. Like through an Email or your webpage.

If you are having a problem, however tactfully(and gently) bringing it up could help the situation.

i would totally agree with not telling people 'how' to play, im a terrible drummer so im in no position whatsoever to do that. and asking them to totally rearrange their drums would be out of the question, comfortable drummer=happy in my book.

making light of problems though is essential. worked recording a good drummer a while back with his own definite style of playing, only when we laid down the drum tracks did it become apparent that his kick was early and a bit inconsistent, even though noone else in the band had ever noticed it. after showing him what was off he managed to get it spot on and commented how much tighter it sounded (which was the sort of sound they were after). a few weeks later he mentioned how watching and correcting this bad habit had improved his overall playing.

recording process has always shown me where im going slack as a musician, particularly regarding timing. so where a carefully placed word can improve something, do it. but trying to change someones overall style or dynamic is a definite no, and if they dont want to change something dont make them, they are paying you after all, and recording pissed off musicians is something noone wants to deal with!

ive found making a click that works for a particular drummer also helps a lot, the most bizarre gm midi patches of syndrums and shakers might sound daft, but are often much easier to follow than that dreaded 'boink' metronome noise.

being tactful is by far the most important thing, but if something is causing a problem, say something. you will only regret it when mixing. arrogant engineers get on everyones tits though!

michaeltheangryrussian wrote:

To anyone out there who's paying attention - do the right thing. If you're not sure about something, err on the side of caution. What are we talking about here? Too many mics? Too many tracks? That's almost laughable. I'd much rather have too many choices during mixdown than not enough. But hey. That's just me.

Hello Larry,

I have a feeling that if someone is reading, they are most likely paying attention.

I also used to feel that you could never have too many tracks and mics, etc. It seems logical, and "safe", and it is a smart way to learn what works through experimentation A/B-ing, etc... when working on your own stuff, or with friends. Through trial and error I eventually learned what does and what does not work in specific situations, and also learned that getting things right at the source, while tracking, always yeilds better results and proves to be more efficient during mixdown.Using excess mics and excess tracks "just in case" usually ends up wasting time later on during the mixing session. It's important to make solid, confident decisions when tracking so that mixing doesn't suck the life out of you, the client, or their pocketbooks.

thanks
mike

An intelligent and well thought-out response. I agree 100%. I wasn't trying to infer that you need 200 mics/tracks when 5 will do. I mean use some common sense. The topic was whether to mic a hi hat or not. Another track isn't going to cause anyone any trouble. The hi hat, kick and snare are your main time-keeping elements. It makes sense to give those three elements top priority. Like I said before, I don't mic my studio hi hat because I've learned over time I don't need to. But when I get a strange/new kit in my studio, I often just throw a mic on it to be safe and keep or discard the track later. nuff said