Earwicker wrote:

Chapter Two wrote:If a black southern American has a distrust of white people because his ancestors were treated like shit for a few hundred years and he is still subject to ignorant racism now, I'd say that distrust is somewhat justified.

As these things are want to it seems to have come down to semantics. I just don't like the use of the word 'justified'. Unlike saying it is 'an excuse' or 'an explaination' or even 'a reason' the use of the word 'justified' suggests to me that you accept their right to be racist.

I can understand where the prejudice comes from, I can understand where prejudice against Muslims and other cultures/races/gingers comes from but I would never say that any of the reasons that lead to my understanding were 'justifications'.

Racists in my experience are either a/ totally ignorant of the most basic things or b/ educated but were bummed by their uncle/brother/pet dalmation and the aggression that develops as a result is channelled into something totally irrational.

Is class prejudice justified? Is a poor person from a poor family justified in having prejudice against the rich? After all, it's been going a long time now, this imbalance. Yes, the rich have repeatedly fucked over the poor, but it's been going on for so long, maybe the poor should just forget about it and accept the way things are and be at peace with their overlords...

Well I don't think they should drop it and neither do you. Their resentment is justified because it springs from injustice.

I guess that from a certain perspective, any prejudice against the people of a nation can be considered racism, however valid the reasons are for it. If you also regard anything that can be coinsidered racism utterly stupid and ignorant, then of course your conclusion is going to be that no resentment regarding the people of another nation by a nation that were hammered by them in the past is anything more than ignorance and idiocy. That seems to be your argument, and yes, it is one of semantics.

Chapter Two wrote:Would any Scottish members of this forum like to comment on the fact of the still held prejudice against the English?

It's still very much in place.

The English media (and Scottish, actually) are probably most to blame for this.

The fact that successful Scots are referred to as "British" and successful English folk are called English certainly doesn't help.

I have no problem with the English, just the English media.

They are cunts. And I'm sure most reasonable English folks think the same.

I'm English and I live in Scotland now.
I haven't experienced anything other than warmth and geniality from the locals. That isn't just in the three months i've lived here, that's every time I have visited over the years.

Compared to where I used to live Scotland is downright amiable, I can't see where the bad press comes from.

Chapter Two wrote:Is class prejudice justified? Is a poor person from a poor family justified in having prejudice against the rich? After all, it's been going a long time now, this imbalance....
Well I don't think they should drop it and neither do you.

Wasting your time being prejudiced against something as vague as "people who're rich" seems to be a rather foolish and weak stance to me. Perhaps you mean that it's ok to disparage the stereotypical, rich, braying toff; in which case it's also fine to slag off the stereotypical, thuggish, low-brow fuckwits in tracksuits and caps who're littering the streets outside my house at this exact moment. I hope so, because I do both all the time - but then again, I'm well on down the road towards hate-filled lunacy.

Chapter Two wrote:Is class prejudice justified? Is a poor person from a poor family justified in having prejudice against the rich? After all, it's been going a long time now, this imbalance. Yes, the rich have repeatedly fucked over the poor, but it's been going on for so long, maybe the poor should just forget about it and accept the way things are and be at peace with their overlords...

Well I don't think they should drop it and neither do you. Their resentment is justified because it springs from injustice.

The examples you give are of continuing injustices. I don't see that the Scottish are treat poorly by the English anymore. I see no prejudice from the English toward the Scottish anymore, the opposite in fact. I do not live in Scotland (and in fact, when I have visited it seems to be full of Australians and upper class English) but I know someone who does live there and they have expressed an awareness of racism in the media and from various people.
I don't mean to sound like Norman Tebbit but if Scotland is knocked out of the world cup the Scots sure as fuck don't want the English to win. The English (largely) would want the Scots to win in the contrary circumstance.

Chapter Two wrote:I guess that from a certain perspective, any prejudice against the people of a nation can be considered racism, however valid the reasons are for it. If you also regard anything that can be coinsidered racism utterly stupid and ignorant, then of course your conclusion is going to be that no resentment regarding the people of another nation by a nation that were hammered by them in the past is anything more than ignorance and idiocy. That seems to be your argument, and yes, it is one of semantics.

I would say the semantic controversy is over the use of the word 'Justification' specifically. Any prejudice against all members of a particular nation based on something that happened generations ago is totally stupid and ignorant and idiotic - yes. And there is no justification for it.

Are you saying that if you met a local who thought all Italians were total motherfuckers and all Danish/Scandinavians are rapists and murdering heathens you would nod in a conciliatory manner and express your understanding of his obviously reasonable stance on the people born on those places today?

Arse - you'd think - get over it for fucks sake.

(sorry for telling you what you'd say but I notice you keep doing it to me so I consider it acceptable)

Nico Adie wrote:The fact that successful Scots are referred to as "British" and successful English folk are called English certainly doesn't help.

I've not noticed this to be the case at all. If you can be arsed could you highlight some examples of this? It seems to me that a Scotsman's nationality is usually portrayed that way.

Chapter Two wrote:No, but I don't think the Scottish should be expected to stop moaning and be happy with their lot when this is still our national anthem, any more than you should be happy to sing God Save The Queen.

But that would only matter to me if I ever sang the national anthem or ever felt any desire to. I don't. And I can think of plenty more things to get wound up by than that this is our national anthem.

The fact we have a monarchy in the first place for example.

And that's pretty low down the scale.

And should I point out that, by now, our monarchy is pretty much Scottish or English as it is German.

If all the Scots have to complain about these days are those lines in the national anthem then I am inclined to say - find something more important to complain about - fucks sake.

I should hereby point out that I could not give a flying fuck if the scots had full independence. In fact I'd probably think it a good thing. Though probably not the best thing for the Scots.

Earwicker wrote:

Nico Adie wrote:The fact that successful Scots are referred to as "British" and successful English folk are called English certainly doesn't help.

I've not noticed this to be the case at all. If you can be arsed could you highlight some examples of this? It seems to me that a Scotsman's nationality is usually portrayed that way.

Andy Murray was referred to a British at Wimbledon (even English at one point), while Tim Henman is referred to as English.

David Coulthard has been called British throughout his Formula One career, Damon Hill called English.

These sort of comments are usually made in passing by commentators, or in newspaper articles. There's too much info for me to go through to pick out specific examples, but I think it happens and all my friends think it happens, and my parents think it happens, and people that I work with think it happens...could we all be wrong?

I suppose we maybe could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Again, my problem is not with the English in general, just the English press and media.

I'm English in Scotland, Scottish in England - and low-level prejudice still definitely exists, both ways.

Earwicker wrote:I do not live in Scotland (and in fact, when I have visited it seems to be full of Australians and upper class English)

I'd maybe consider visiting somewhere other than downtown Edinburgh, at some time other than Edinburgh festival time.

I would say the semantic controversy is over the use of the word 'Justification' specifically. Any prejudice against all members of a particular nation based on something that happened generations ago is totally stupid and ignorant and idiotic - yes. And there is no justification for it.

Thanks for restating one of the premises of your argument. If this premise is valid, then your argument is sound. If not, then not.

I think you might feel differently if you were Scottish, to be honest.

Are you saying that if you met a local who thought all Italians were total motherfuckers and all Danish/Scandinavians are rapists and murdering heathens you would nod in a conciliatory manner and express your understanding of his obviously reasonable stance on the people born on those places today?

I don't think the Scottish regard the present generation of English people the same as their ancestors did. I don't think they regard us as a people that they should prepare for war with. They just think we're wankers.

Arse - you'd think - get over it for fucks sake.

(sorry for telling you what you'd say but I notice you keep doing it to me so I consider it acceptable)

Sorry for suggesting you had a class consciousness, Paul. I'll be more careful in future.