@_-'-__-'-__-'-_.........tumble....weed.........._-'-__-'-__-'-__-'-_@

Ow!

Sorry, I just stubbed my toe on that gauntlet lying there, all thrown down.

As for that Mixerman guy, he comes across as someone I'd not like to meet in real life. Must be great going around assuming everyone else on the planet is inferior until they begin to live up to your standards.

steve wrote:

rocker654 wrote:Entertainment lawyers seem to be the people that would have most clout in shopping a demo to a major. Unless you have an established management company (Gold Mountain, Kelly Curtis, etc.) with credibility, this is the typical path.

I have never met a talent manager with clout enough to negotiate with the big boys.

So, do you know what you're talking about or are you making this all up?

Please tell us:
1) How many "talent managers" have you met, and what negotiations did they fail at?
2) Who are these entertainment lawyers, and what demos have they successfully "shopped?" To whom, "shopped?"
3) Have more bands been signed at the behest of lawyers, managers, or the bands themselves? Give percentages please. You may approximate them if you must.
4) You say that lawyers are the "typical" path for a band to get signed. Please tell us the sample size that allowed you to draw this conclusion. How many deals have you witnessed being made? Of these, how many bands were signed because they had a lawyer, versus how many were signed through other venues, or were not signed because they didn't use a lawyer (not some other reason).

I await your response.

Well, he did say "seem".

steve wrote:

rocker654 wrote:Entertainment lawyers seem to be the people that would have most clout in shopping a demo to a major. Unless you have an established management company (Gold Mountain, Kelly Curtis, etc.) with credibility, this is the typical path.

I have never met a talent manager with clout enough to negotiate with the big boys.

So, do you know what you're talking about or are you making this all up?

Oh snap.

Sounds just like the way it happened in That Thing You Do.

steve wrote:

rocker654 wrote:Entertainment lawyers seem to be the people that would have most clout in shopping a demo to a major. Unless you have an established management company (Gold Mountain, Kelly Curtis, etc.) with credibility, this is the typical path.

I have never met a talent manager with clout enough to negotiate with the big boys.

So, do you know what you're talking about or are you making this all up?

Please tell us:
1) How many "talent managers" have you met, and what negotiations did they fail at?
2) Who are these entertainment lawyers, and what demos have they successfully "shopped?" To whom, "shopped?"
3) Have more bands been signed at the behest of lawyers, managers, or the bands themselves? Give percentages please. You may approximate them if you must.
4) You say that lawyers are the "typical" path for a band to get signed. Please tell us the sample size that allowed you to draw this conclusion. How many deals have you witnessed being made? Of these, how many bands were signed because they had a lawyer, versus how many were signed through other venues, or were not signed because they didn't use a lawyer (not some other reason).

I await your response.

My response will be forthcoming, I need to get as much accurate information as possible before I respond. My sources are personal experience, reports from other people (possibly hearsay, but you know...), a book I read many moons ago called "This Business Of Music" (I think that's correct), and our own personal "talent managers" (A former radio station DJ, a member of Badfinger, the manager of a band called "Limited Warranty", and a music critic--all relied on entertainment lawyers for the heavy lifting when negotiating with major labels). I want to be as specific as possible. However, I did use the word "seem" as it is a personal observation that I was sharing. I didn't intend it to be seen as "the gospel", I was merely sharing experience. I will address all of these points as accurately as I can, but for now, I need to get to work in the morning, so I must sleep.

"Make it up"? Why in the hell would I do that? I rather resent the implication.

he sure knows how to use the word "clout"
he must be smart

steve wrote:So, do you know what you're talking about or are you making this all up?

I know what my experiences and conversations with those who would be in the position to know are. I know what I'm talking about. What you think, I could not give a rat's ass about, but since you seem to imply a false accusation, I feel the need to address it, "Supreme Commander at the Forefront".

steve wrote:1) How many "talent managers" have you met, and what negotiations did they fail at?

Well, we interviewed a few--ranging from drunks at bars, saying "youse guys is great, I'm a great band manager, and (hic) I gots all these idears" to those who had industry experience with established bands such as the Suburbs, Replacements, Soul Asylum. Being young musicians and unfamiliar with the workings of "the Business", we didn't always make the right choice. In fact, a case could be made that we never made the right choice. As far as negotiations they failed at, they couldn't get a meeting on their own without the lawyers help.

steve wrote:2) Who are these entertainment lawyers, and what demos have they successfully "shopped?" To whom, "shopped?"

I can only personally speak for the lawyers that I have dealt with, but I have heard from others that have had similar experiences. I can't remember the names of the ones I have dealt with (the building at 9th Street and 3rd Avenue in Minneapolis was one place where I can remember meeting with at least one 22 years ago, and has since been remodeled) had experience negotiating deals for Cameo, DeBarge, and largely a roster of black acts--no racism intended. He was a white guy with contacts at WB, A&M, and Capitol. A&M was the only label that expressed interest in our demo. He also got us out of a deal we stupidly signed with something called Helion Records, which turned out to be a company that was signing acts merely to get a payout if a major showed interest. They paid for practice space in a warehouse for 3 months, and that's about it. They never released a record from anyone. We would have been given a salary ($300/week) plus 4 points of NET sales (there is no such thing)--slave wages. The company would own anything we produced in perpetuity, similar to how Allen Klein still owns everything the Rolling Stones did until 1968. This guy got us out of that, and I am still gratetful.

steve wrote:3) Have more bands been signed at the behest of lawyers, managers, or the bands themselves? Give percentages please. You may approximate them if you must.

How the fuck should I know that? I was offering my opinion based on my personal experience and information I have gotten from others that were in the same position. I met Todd Rundgren at a house party last summer, and a few of us that were clustered around the fire were discussing the state of the music industry (which I don't have much experience with in the last 15 years). Todd mentioned that it was all lawyers now, less A&R. The number of major labels have decreased, and there are less "bidding wars", and they have stopped trying to acquire the indies. The opinion seemed to point towards the fact that the majors don't seem to grasp that "unit shifting" is no longer the gold standard, and the old guard are not able to comprehend the "digital millenium". Breakage percentages are an example of something that they used to be able to use against artists--how can you account for this when media is digitally transferred?

steve wrote:4) You say that lawyers are the "typical" path for a band to get signed. Please tell us the sample size that allowed you to draw this conclusion. How many deals have you witnessed being made? Of these, how many bands were signed because they had a lawyer, versus how many were signed through other venues, or were not signed because they didn't use a lawyer (not some other reason).

This was the case in the past. There are no hard and fast rules, some hit the lottery, others (possibly even more deserving than others that received deals, but had inadequate representation within the industry, consequently never got anywhere) languish in obscurity. I have no experience in dealing with indie labels other than possibly Twin/Tone, and they made no bones in saying that we didn't fit in with their esthetic. Lawyers with established contacts seem to be the typical path for those dealing with major labels. Do you have some experience otherwise? You certainly don't cite any examples in your challenging post.

I await your response, or a public apology for indicating that I may be "making this all up". I know what the situation was a couple of decades ago, it may be different now, but I don't think so. I have absolute confidence that I know what I am talking about.

I usually ignore long Q&A type posts like this, myself. Sorry to the innocent bystanders. To get back on topic, the book cited seems like it might be a good read, if only for the controversial opinions. I'll have to look it up.

...so, sort of makng it up, and sort of drawing conclusions based on a conversation with the guy who did something for DeBarge whose name you don't remember.

My reason for tweaking you into posting something more thoughtful than your glib "here's how it works" post is that people come to messageboards like this for information, and when enough people tell them "this is the way it is," they could be forgiven for thinking it to be true, and they might act on it.

I don't want to participate in disseminating that sort of unsubstantiated "conventional wisdom," or worse yet, the uncorroborated conclusions of an individual guy who may not have the footing to know what's up.

People in bands get confronted with all sorts of career-defining decisions, and I would like to help them weed thorugh them. Saying, "You need a lawyer and established management" is such an oversimplification (and so assuredly wrong, given the scope of the music industry now) that it is actually destructive. It encourages delegation (to an unattainable class of professionals) rather than solving problems.

Big bands have establshed management because they are already established themselves. A young band needs nothing of the kind, and most bands never do.

Big bands use music-industry lawyers because they have many obligations already within that industry. Young bands don't need lawyers, and I have made the case that lawyers are irrelevant to the eventual fulfillment of any contract. Indeed, I believe the contracts themselves are irrelevant.

These established lawyer/management players are essentially uninterested in new bands because their specialty is handling the affairs of established bands who have a lot of money on the line. They are not appropriate for trying to get a foot in the door.

That's my point.