andyman wrote:Documentaries (i'm not saying they're totally reliable) have been made exploring the topic with some claiming that qi is an actual energy with healing/strengthening properties that is secreted from somewhere in the abdomen.

I wouldn't disregard it based on a couple of videos...

It's hard or impossible to prove a negative, so you're correct that the videos do not disprove Qi; nor do they prove Qi.

So where is the evidence that Qi really exists?

Acupuncture is a good example of such, as (beyond the simple fact that it seems to work on people) it's been experimentally proven to have greater success that a placebo needle treatment.

Does anyone know where I can find evidence that acupuncture works better than a placebo? IIRC, you can get the same or similar effect by putting needles in the "wrong" or random locations. IOW, acupuncture can have a positive therapeutic effect, but not for the reasons given by acupuncturists.

newberry wrote:

andyman wrote:Documentaries (i'm not saying they're totally reliable) have been made exploring the topic with some claiming that qi is an actual energy with healing/strengthening properties that is secreted from somewhere in the abdomen.

I wouldn't disregard it based on a couple of videos...

It's hard or impossible to prove a negative, so you're correct that the videos do not disprove Qi; nor do they prove Qi.

But where is the evidence that Qi really exists?

I wouldn't imagine there is. As far as I can see, exploring the cases (e.g. healing properties) and facts and drawing conclusions based on these - while keeping an open mind - is the best you can do. I just really dislike the idea of eliminating something from your viewpoint based on a small range of examples.

I guess i'm reiterating your point.

the same or similar effect by putting needles in the "wrong" or random locations

I would've imagined this is the placebo needle treatment that was mentioned in the quote?

newberry wrote:Does anyone know where I can find evidence that acupuncture works better than a placebo?

How about next time you have an ailment, you go see a Chinese medical practitioner? One that's registered with a proper body of practitioners, as there's lots of quacks.

I just really dislike the idea of eliminating something from your viewpoint based on a small range of examples.

I don't "eliminate it from my viewpoint," (actually, I'm not sure what that means). I have an open mind, and will gladly look at evidence that Qi or Feng Shui really works. Until I see credible evidence, I'll assume that it doesn't, as it seems much more likely that there are other, natural things going on.

If I hear strange sounds in my house late at night, I'm going to assume that they're from the wind, or someone playing a joke on me, or a burglar, or my cat, etc. I'm going to assume the sounds aren't being made by ghosts. I know that cats and burglars and weather exist. So far, I've seen no evidence that ghosts exist. So do I "eliminate ghosts from my viewpoint"? I guess so, until I see evidence.

How about next time you have an ailment, you go see a Chinese medical practitioner? One that's registered with a proper body of practitioners, as there's lots of quacks.

Could you suggest a proper body of practitioners?

I'd prefer to see double blind, controlled studies that show Chinese Medicine is safe and efficacious. But I wouldn't rule it out. What is one ailment that Chinese medicine can definitely, consistently treat successfully?

My original post was moreso aimed at what steve said.

By "eliminate it from my viewpoint," I meant disbelieving something, and I meant based on lack of evidence as opposed to actual evidence disproving it.

newberry wrote:What is one ailment that Chinese medicine can definitely, consistently treat successfully?

Well it clears up the shilly-shilly pretty quick. I also know a couple of shepherds in the Gettham area who got treated a few years ago for a bad case of the black egg.

newberry wrote:I have not stated that Chi isn't real, or that Chinese medicine doesn't work, by the way.

sorry if I sounded like a smart ass. I did not intend to offend you. I took psyche as an example for a subject that is also based upon supposition.

there's no clinical proof for chi. I do not deny that fact.

I had big troubles with my back for a long time, and shiatsu and qigong helped me to get better. that's my experience . nothing to argue about. I practice qigong for some years and tai chi for one year. I think the energy flows. that's it. I won't try to persuade anybody of it.

bassdriver wrote:

newberry wrote:I have not stated that Chi isn't real, or that Chinese medicine doesn't work, by the way.

sorry if I sounded like a smart ass. I did not intend to offend you. I took psyche as an example for a subject that is also based upon supposition.

there's no clinical proof for chi. I do not deny that fact.

I had big troubles with my back for a long time, and shiatsu and qigong helped me to get better. that's my experience . nothing to argue about. I practice qigong for some years and tai chi for one year. I think the energy flows. that's it. I won't try to persuade anybody of it.

Thanks for the apology, but I wasn't offended.

If you believe in Qi energy, and aren't interested in persuading others about it, I respect that. Personally, I'm very curious about stuff like this, and interested in trying to distinguish between what really works and what doesn't. And I hate to see people wasting money on a bogus treatment, or not getting real help when they need it.

Maybe Shiatsu and/or Qigong were effective in treating your back trouble, I can only speculate. Or maybe you would have reached the same state of relief after a simple, thereapeutic massage. Or maybe the back trouble went away on its own (I get back pain that comes and goes whether I do something about it or not). Or maybe it was the placebo effect. Or maybe something else--going for a walk or swim. That's where controlled studies come in--you try to rule out the other stuff and determine whether the treatment in question is really working or not.

The Amazing Randi has covered this before; no one has stepped up for the million bucks I might add.

I've had experience with martial arts and I like it as exercise, but did not buy into the 'spiritual' implications like Chi.

Check out Bullshido:

http://www.bullshido.net/

It's a pro martial arts but anti-mysticism (related to the martial arts) forum

etch wrote:The Amazing Randi has covered this before; no one has stepped up for the million bucks I might add.

I've had experience with martial arts and I like it as exercise, but did not buy into the 'spiritual' implications like Chi.

Check out Bullshido:

http://www.bullshido.net/

It's a pro martial arts but anti-mysticism (related to the martial arts) forum

Thanks for the posting the link; looks like a great site (though the graphic design is kinda hard on the eyes).