newberry wrote:If you have no idea why it works, how do you know it's Chi? There are a great many things that science hasn't yet understood, and maybe never will. If there is a lack of evidence about something, you can make stuff up, but that doesn't make it true.

Right. I don't know what the actual physical process is. I know that practices based around a systematic understanding of something that is called chi/ki/qi have proven effective in controlled experimental situations. The way those manipulations affect the body, and what they are affecting, is presently not explicable. The logical conclusion, therefore, is "The system of chi manipulated in acupuncture corresponds to some known or unknown physical system."

Of course, as alluded to previously, discussing chi is rather complicated when most westerners are just assuming that someone talking about chi is talking about The Force, when many applications of it are simply words - chi corresponding to kinetic energy and muscular structure, chi corresponding to intention and concentration, etc. Heck, the physical operation of intention is already completely hazy - if one person says "We can do this by focusing our ki" and another says "Bullshit, it's just a matter of intentionality and concentration," I have to say "Fuck, man, I don't know what either of you are talking about."[/i]

The way those manipulations affect the body, and what they are affecting, is presently not explicable.

I wonder if you could provide a specific example of an inexplicable manifestation of Chi. And how one would know that it is in fact Chi, and not merely the natural (as opposed to supernatural) ability of a human being.

Of course, as alluded to previously, discussing chi is rather complicated when most westerners are just assuming that someone talking about chi is talking about The Force, when many applications of it are simply words - chi corresponding to kinetic energy and muscular structure, chi corresponding to intention and concentration, etc.

I'll try not to make unfounded assumptions about Chi. There does seem to be a complication with defining the term. Does Chi correspond to energy, or is it energy? Is it supernatural?

How would you define it?

newberry wrote:

Harder to say, since some things associated with it are clearly explicable scientifically and some aren't.

Could you provide an example of something associated with Chi that is not scientifically explainable? Could it be that some well trained, disciplined humans are capable of extraordinary physical prowess because of natural abilities alone?

Both of these statements are irrelevant. Whether or not something some sort of "supernatural" act can be attributed to harnessing one's chi is currently explainable by western scientific standards doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that in time it couldn't be. Moreover, the term "chi" can be applied in a blanket, metaphysical sort of statement to describe acts of harnessing natural powers. "Natural" again is a key word. Chi is natural -- there is nothing unnatural about it -- it merely is harnessing the natural flow of energy and matter. It's pretty much that simple. Focus your mind, focus your body, you'll be more directed (in any sense of the word). It's the same reason you can break a block with your hands -- a focus of energy, a flow and follow-through.

I don't think any of us are able to limit the definition of the word chi -- we apply it in practice and that's about it, minding the fact that we are using a quite bastardized version of it. Still, we make do with what we can.

newberry wrote:

If you believe in Qi energy, and aren't interested in persuading others about it, I respect that. Personally, I'm very curious about stuff like this, and interested in trying to distinguish between what really works and what doesn't. And I hate to see people wasting money on a bogus treatment, or not getting real help when they need it.

What really works? That's completely subjective. It's about what really works for the individual. Not all treatments are gonna equally respond well for everyone. That's what a lot of people find is good about Eastern medicine -- it's more individualistic. It's not just "oh, fever, headache, and swelling? it's the flu." It's where are your aches? How are your organs? Let me check all of your body and notice how they work together as a complete functioning system rather than just a series of disembodied, unrelated parts. You guys act like western medicine works, which is total fucking bullshit. Y'all are so occidentalized it's sick. "It's not scientifically verifiable," "that's not clinically proven." By whom? The FDA? Yeah, like they fucking know what's up. It's not like they're controlled by lobbyists for pharmaceutical companies pushing product. And like it's been noted, quantum theory wasn't accepted for a while, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there.

I think we can all agree on a simple thing like exercise is good for one's health. Consider exercises in chi like this -- it's exercise for mind and body. It's about focus. Look at this and think about the benefits from it. If nothing else, if you are that curious, PRACTICE IT. It doesn't have to cost you anything. There are free clinics, fuck I know people meet in the park every weekend around here and do it. How about stop eating cheeseburgers and pondering if it's worth something and find out for yourself? You'll never truly know until you experience it for yourself.

polymath wrote:It's the same reason you can break a block with your hands -- a focus of energy, a flow and follow-through.

You can break a block with your hands when you direct enough force to an appropriate point on the block. You can do it by accident.

Qui, my dick.

Jesus was way hotter.

It's not just "oh, fever, headache, and swelling? it's the flu." It's where are your aches? How are your organs? Let me check all of your body and notice how they work together as a complete functioning system rather than just a series of disembodied, unrelated parts.

Who considers the human body "just a series of disembodied, unrelated parts"? My doctor asks me many questions when I complain of an ailment, about my diet, my stress level, medical history, exercise level, etc. Of course physicians (Western medicine) consider the body a holistic system. Except for Dr. Nick.

You guys act like western medicine works, which is total fucking bullshit.

Have you had Polio lately? Ever been to the ER? How come there aren't "alternative" ERs? Western medicine is far from perfect, but there is overwhelming evidence that it is often "totally fucking" effective. Are you saying it never works? Sometimes works? How often does Chinese medicine work?

It's not like they're controlled by lobbyists for pharmaceutical companies pushing product.

I have lots of criticism for big pharmaceutical companies; like other big corporations, they sometimes do heinous things. On the other hand, there are drugs that save people's lives or otherwise help them a great deal.

But if drugmakers must prove that their products are safe and effective, shouldn't "alternative" products (homeopathic remedies, herbal treatments, etc .) be held to the same standard? The supplement industry is huge--they have a profit motive just like big pharma does. I don't think either "side" should be let off the hook.

And like it's been noted, quantum theory wasn't accepted for a while, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there.

What wasn't there?

It sounds to me like a lot of 'western thinkers' on this bored are trying to make excuses for chi. Trying to make it fit into their permissable world view (for want of a better way of putting it).
Saying, 'oh it's just about concentration and application' is as good as saying that chi is just a made up word (how's that for an expression?).
I don't think practitioners in the far east would agree with this. They say it is an energy. A life force that exists in everything and that the trained can harness it utilising blocked energy from themselves and drawing it from the earth and the air etc etc

How can concentration and application make someone lighter?

I have seen a few 'chi' practitioner videos before I started this thread but decided that they could so easily be dismissed as illusionist magic tricks so didn't put them on. However that there video where the fellas walking on the light bulbs and the razer blades is pretty weird. It is either a fabricated parlour trick (which I'm willing to accept it might be) or 'something' is going on there. (again 'something' does not mean 'supernatural'. Supernatural is just a word people use for something science has yet to explain to the majority's satisfaction).

Those who are instantly dismissing chi often seem to be coming from the standpoint that science has discovered all there is to know and so anything that hasn't got an instrument to measure it yet can't possibly exist.
That is 19th Century thinking if you ask me.

Also let's not forget that the scientifically realised nature of the fabric of the universe (with quantum theory as far as it can be understood) does seem to have been pre empted by, oh, thousands of years by deep thinkers, meditators in the far east - who weren't using 20th Century instruments. I imagine that the science inquisition around here will dismiss that as coincidence - pure fluke - but I'm inclined to think that's just western arrogance and maybe, just maybe, a little bit of fear.

Hi ho

Earwicker wrote:I don't think practitioners in the far east would agree with this. They say it is an energy. A life force that exists in everything and that the trained can harness it utilising blocked energy from themselves and drawing it from the earth and the air etc etc

and how is what they say any more credible than what Matthew says about his beliefs? He'd be pilloried for posting the sort of claptrap that's on this thread - mind you, if he posted that he thought Big Black were pretty good he'd get told he was a cunt.

fiery jack wrote:and how is what they say any more credible than what Matthew says about his beliefs?

I'm not sure it is (which is why I referenced Lourdes earlier).

However, types who use this stuff seem to have something (which may be psychological) that makes them stronger and healthier.

Christians tend to be emotionally stunted immature freaks - my mam and dad included.

Also, I think it would be closer to the Clown's jabberings if practitioners said Chi came from the great bearded mountain God How Sung. They don't (or most don't), they describe something that in a way science can be said to support (the interconnection of all things and all being energy blah blah).
I guess the question is more about whether they have found a way to harness this energy using certain physical and meditative techniques.

These Chi circus performers give a good cause a bad name. It's like an athletic trainer saying plyometrics and power cleans can improve one's vertical leap and then attempting to prove it by embedding spring boards under the floor of his demo. Hey, people do all sorts of stupid shit to make a buck.

Think of chi as chutzpah, or 'the zone', or zen state, or gameface -- applied to the resting mind with regard to health and well being as well as the performance of circus tricks or the defense of restauranteurs under attack by street hoods. It's like exercising the alpha mental state combined with willful manipulation of whatever makes the placebo effect function. Western medicine over the past 50 years has recognized that a positive mental state combined with low stress can speed recovery, increase longevity, and generally make for a happier dude. The Chinese, and others, have actively practiced methods to gain in these areas and have assigned certain names to the concepts.