erskine wrote:

steve wrote:

matthew wrote:So if you really want "racial harmony", abandon the illusory notion of "race".

Pretty easy to do if you're a white dude who has enjoyed all the privileges of being white.

What are they?
I'm very curious of knowing them .

Here's one: Not being discriminated against simply on account of being black.

Matthew,

Holding the gun is a figure of speech, what I was trying to point out is that you and I as white people can never fully understand what it feels like to be discriminated against solely on skin color because we don't experience it.

Even if your family has been involved in racial issues, which is admirable, you or they still don't experience it directly. My parents adopted a African American child twelve years ago whom had been a foster child, neither they nor I would ever pretend to know what it feels like for him to be black in primarily a white world (they live in the deep south), we can only stand alongside and symphathize.

It aint irrelevant buddy, especially to me.

Eierdiebe wrote:

erskine wrote:

steve wrote:

matthew wrote:So if you really want "racial harmony", abandon the illusory notion of "race".

Pretty easy to do if you're a white dude who has enjoyed all the privileges of being white.

What are they?
I'm very curious of knowing them .

Here's one: Not being discriminated against simply on account of being black.

Yep. The fundamental privilege of being white in America, beyond economic concerns, is the right to not think about race.

No black person can coherantly make the bullshit argument that Matthew's been tossing around, nor can an Asian, Hispanic, Native American, Pacific Islander, Arab, etc. There is no option to cease dealing with race for anyone but the dominant ethnic group, and all such "color blindness" does is ignore the fact that America remains a startlingly racist society, as ampirically demonstrated by studies from MIT, the U of Chicago, and others.

matthew wrote:and for the record, I have both Irish and Polish ancestry, but I'm neither drunk nor stupid.

[at this point, you're supposed to laugh]

I thought people were supposed to laugh at funny things? Now i'm completely confused.

DrAwkward wrote:

matthew wrote:and for the record, I have both Irish and Polish ancestry, but I'm neither drunk nor stupid.

[at this point, you're supposed to laugh]

I thought people were supposed to laugh at funny things? Now i'm completely confused.

I think he misplaced the joke.

kerble wrote:I'm an intelligent, self-actualized person who is comfortable with and proud of my race. Pity is for assholes. I am completely offended by this "race doesn't exist" argument, because I've never seen it argued by someone who wasn't white. It's something you would NEVER understand unless you were in my or a similar position to do so.

An asshole exhibits more pride than pity, for the record.

And I can't attest to the bona fides of Morgan Freeman, but I agree with his take on the "race doesn't exist" argument:

WALLACE: How are we going to get rid of racism until...?

FREEMAN: Stop talking about it. I`m going to stop calling you a white man. And I`m going to ask you to stop calling me a black man. I know you as Mike Wallace. You know me as Morgan Freeman. You`re not going to say, "I know this white guy named Mike Wallace." Hear what I`m saying?

kerble wrote:How dare you.

I suppose this encourages an open line of discussion...

alandeus wrote:

kerble wrote:I'm an intelligent, self-actualized person who is comfortable with and proud of my race. Pity is for assholes. I am completely offended by this "race doesn't exist" argument, because I've never seen it argued by someone who wasn't white. It's something you would NEVER understand unless you were in my or a similar position to do so.

An asshole exhibits more pride than pity, for the record.

okay, I guess. If you want to pull the quote out of the context of the paragraph and be a dick, that's cool.

alandeus wrote:

kerble wrote:How dare you.

I suppose this encourages an open line of discussion...

Looking back at the six or seven posts that followed, I guess it didn't stop it.

kerble wrote:

alandeus wrote:

kerble wrote:I'm an intelligent, self-actualized person who is comfortable with and proud of my race. Pity is for assholes. I am completely offended by this "race doesn't exist" argument, because I've never seen it argued by someone who wasn't white. It's something you would NEVER understand unless you were in my or a similar position to do so.

An asshole exhibits more pride than pity, for the record.

okay, I guess. If you want to pull the quote out of the context of the paragraph and be a dick, that's cool.

alandeus wrote:

kerble wrote:How dare you.

I suppose this encourages an open line of discussion...

Looking back at the six or seven posts that followed, I guess it didn't stop it.

For the sake of clarification, the relevant context that would render the point moot being what, exactly?

alandeus wrote:For the sake of clarification, the relevant context that would render the point moot being what, exactly?

kerble wrote:I'm Indian, for fuck's sake--arguably the socially 'whitest' of the brown folks, and it's still been horrible. I don't wish for pity, because that's the last thing I want. I'm an intelligent, self-actualized person who is comfortable with and proud of my race. Pity is for assholes.

because the "Pity is for Assholes" comment refers to the things that have happened to me that were "horrible," not the institution of Pity as a whole. I didn't (and don't) feel that I'm looking for pity in the sense of "oh poor brown me in the white man's world, I don't know how I can cope with all the bullshit I've dealt with because of my skin". I'm fine. I was just framing the discussion. I don't want any sympathy or "it's been so hard for you, I know" pity because it's condescending. It however, is not nearly as condescending as hearing some white guy say "race doesn't exist".

And what is so wrong with being proud of your race/heritage/culture? I don't wish to destroy other cultures or feel superior. I just like mine, thank you very much.



Faiz

kerble wrote:species compatibility is irrelevant. there is a distinct social construct based on race and the physical attributes thereof. Social situations deal with how humans interact, and race often dictates how well or how poorly people treat each other. This is undeniable. There is still a stigma involved with those of darker skin, even within groups of people that all have dark skin.

"Social construct" is the key term here. I'm convinced that the term race has no scientific merit, and exists only within the context of long-standing social recognitions and prejudices toward physical attributes like skin color and hair type. I do think society would benefit from disregarding the notion of race, but unfortunately it's not open-minded, tolerant people like most of us that need convincing, but people we would deem 'racist.' (Would such an -ism exist without the pre-acceptance of the root word?)

My wife is Brazilian-Norwegian, and has spent most of her life in the USA. She also has an anthropology degree, for what it's worth, and has said much to convince me that race is a bullshit term. In Brazil, she is viewed as 'white.' Here, people usually think she is 'Hispanic.' When she has to fill out a stupid form that asks for race, she invariably checks the 'other' box when available, though there might as well be a box labeled 'exotic.' Her mother is dark-skinned and has experienced her share of prejudice and horrible things, both here and in her home country.

Fact is, there are a lot of ignorant people in the world who are fearful and hateful of people who look different from them, especially with regard to the pigmentation of their skin. Call it race distinction if you like, I just call it fucking stupidity. And while 'Caucasians' no doubt have had privileges and have committed the most egregious race-motivated crimes in history, racism obviously can work both ways.

When I got married, it really amused me to see my dark-skinned, Brazilian mother-in-law meet my Italian-American grandmother. They were very sweet and cordial and had plenty of things in common (both like to make gnocchi, albeit a bit differently). Later my grandmother admitted to me that she had no idea my wife's mother was dark-skinned, that she was "kind of shocked by that." She's not a hateful or racist person, but long-held perceptions can be hard to shake.

You asked for an "alternative solution for people to be more agreeable with each other" other than denying that race exists. Further inter-racial propagation is the only answer I can think of. Eventually (after several generations) the idea of race will not seem like such a big deal. So, go out and make some light mocha-skinned, green slant-eyed, nappy-headed babies. You'll be helping the evolution of our species, and your kids will have the added benefit of a varied gene pool. Tiger Woodses everywhere you look.

And what is so wrong with being proud of your race/heritage/culture? I don't wish to destroy other cultures or feel superior. I just like mine, thank you very much.

Heritage and culture, agreed. What the fuck is race?