Hi,
I'm just about to start mixing a bunch of stuff my band recorded during the summer. It was done live to 8track, one of the tracks being a cheapo dynamic (electrovoice n/d257 b) placed high up to catch the room. I'm now at the stage of wondering what to do with it in the mix.
After reading about how m/s recording works, I started thinking about what might happen if you were to split the signal into two, reverse the phase of one part, and pan them hard left and right. It struck me that the cancellation of the two in the centre of the stereo image would cause it to sound really, erm, ambient. Anyone tried this?
'But why doesn't the fool just try it?', I hear you cry. Firstly,my desk has no phase reverse and, secondly, the outs from the 8track are unbalanced. This means I'd have to purchase a couple of decent quality 1:1 transformers, which don't seem just helluva cheap over here, in order to try this (I would be right in thinking that I'd have to put the unaltered signal through a transformer with the secondary wired normally in order to keep it identical with the reversed signal?). Would the results justify the expense?
On a similar vein, I seem to recall a thread a while back about how delaying an ambient mic by about 15-30ms also helps it sit in the mix. Does anyone know of a cheap box of tricks that offers this facility?
Any insight appreciated,
cheers,
dave

dave-sidca wrote:After reading about how m/s recording works, I started thinking about what might happen if you were to split the signal into two, reverse the phase of one part, and pan them hard left and right. It struck me that the cancellation of the two in the centre of the stereo image would cause it to sound really, erm, ambient. Anyone tried this?

if you take two identical signals and reverse the polarity of one, the signal should disappear completely. i don't know if panning would cause further phase cancellation to the point that you would hear something again, never tried it. i did once split the signal of a mono source, delay one by 20 ms or so and then pan them to about 9 and 3. i wouldn't call it ambient sounding, just sort of fucked up. phasey or flangey or something.

tim wrote:
if you take two identical signals and reverse the polarity of one, the signal should disappear completely.

but if you pan one signal hard to the left, and one hard to the right when mixing to 2track, then the phase cancellation will take place in the air between the speakers of the reproducing system (as opposed to in the console) . Of this much I am reasonably confident. I'm also fairly sure that this cancellation will not be complete, only occuring in the middle of the stereo field. As to how this will actually sound, I am clueless.

so, to recap, I'm wondering:
a) has anyone tried this?
b) does it work as it theoretically should?
c) would it cause any phase problems for the other tracks in the mix?

oh yeah, d) does aanyone know where I can buy 1:1 transformers in the UK without giving my hard-earned to those bastards at Canford?

Anyone?

Hey Dave, just a thought:
Why don't you balance your signal by running it through a decent DI box, reverse the phase and bring it back to your mixer? Make sure the levels are equally loud so that the signals cancel each other out when panned to the middle and there you go.
We've tried something like the ambient thing you describe with a room mic for a bass amp. The two signal were additionally delayed for about 25 ms.
Good luck,
Max.

dave-sidca wrote:oh yeah, d) does aanyone know where I can buy 1:1 transformers in the UK without giving my hard-earned to those bastards at Canford?

Anyone?

Try these:

http://www.vvttransformers.co.uk/

http://www.sowter.co.uk/

I have had good experiences with both companies in the past. You'll probably have more luck with Sowter, as VVT mostly make transformers for valve-type projects.

On a similar vein, I seem to recall a thread a while back about how delaying an ambient mic by about 15-30ms also helps it sit in the mix. Does anyone know of a cheap box of tricks that offers this facility?

an alesis midiverb will do this, just try to find a really dry sound, or turn the decay off, set the pre-delay time to 15-30 ms (according to the Haas effect, the longer the delay, the wider the image is going to seem, but the quieter it will need to be in relation to the direct sound, otherwise you'll get this really bad psuedo-slapback echo sound. there is defnetly a 'sweet spot' for this as far as signal level goes.), and turn the mix all the way up. theres probably a better way to do this, but i usually use the pre-fader aux send to the reverb box, and turn the direct signal down all the way.

most everything ive heard from electrical has this effect on the drums, and from what little ive read they use an Eventide Harmonizer for delaying the room mics.

Thanks guys, much appreciated. Do all the midiverbs do this? I've just had a look on ebay and it looks like alesis have been through at least 4 models of it.
cheers

dave

well, we have a midiverb 3, pretty much any delay unit you can find with a digital millisecond readout of the delay time would work, and turn the mix to 100% and the feedback to 0%. as for the other midiverbs, im not sure, but i would imagine they'd be able to do it.

we got ours for something like 200 bucks on ebay. not sure how much that is in pounds.

Dude, just split the signal and delay one side about 5 or 10ms and you'll have a really cool pseudo stereo track when you pan them hard. you can delay it more, but it will just sound like delay. If you keep it small it just spreads it in your mind, it's a perception thing.

If you just reverse one side you'll get some very unhelpful comb filtering. However, if you take one side, time lag that 15ms, split to two channels and reverse the phase on one side, you can get an interesting sense of stereo space by varying the volume of your centre channel