sunlore wrote:The Kreutzer Sonata will give you a class-A mindfuck, if you're anything like me. Seriously, read it today.

Maybe not today, but it's now on top of the list. As soon as I finish these other two books that should be fast reads. Thanks.

Angus Jung wrote:But I can't recommend Resurrection and Anna Karenina highly enough.

And thanks here as well. Slappin' it on the list.

I gotta go with Dostoyevsky here. I mean The Idiot is my favorite book of all time. I also read Crime and Punishment, Brothers Karmazov, the Possessed to only Anna Karenina by Tolstoy. I would say Anna Karenina was better than the brothers Karmazov and possibly Crime and Punishment, but no way better than The Idiot or The Possessed.

Both are awesome in my opinion.

Tolstoy by a country mile.

I'd also put Chekhov, Gogol, Osip Mandelstam, and Andrei Bely above Dostoyevsky, as far as Russian/Soviet literature goes.

I'm that Russian regard for Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky came as a response to Western regard for these writers, and that Russians generally rank Pushkin, Turgenev, and Chekhov much higher. I'm also told that, in Russian, Dostoyevsky is spectacularly unsubtle.

rayj wrote:I mean that what we usually see as misanthropy is a deep-seated sense of frustration and disappointment. You don't feel something that strongly if you truly don't care. In a very general, nebulous sense, hatred and love stem from the same source: namely, giving a shit.

i know what you're saying, but in some ways, especially these days, i think it takes a lot of love to be indifferent toward others. i don't mean indifference in that one is socially apathetic and steps on other people and doesn't care the least bit for their well-being. i mean indifference in the sense that one lets people live their lives without having to assume some sort of moral upperhand all the time. i think albert camus, for instance, though not as a good a writer as dostoevsky, had a much more healthy moral outlook. it's interesting to note that on several occasions in his writing dostoevsky takes pot shots at french/european culture. he was no doubt bitter over the hard life lessons that had foisted upon him in his youth, at the height of his idealism.

Eierdiebe wrote:

rayj wrote:I mean that what we usually see as misanthropy is a deep-seated sense of frustration and disappointment. You don't feel something that strongly if you truly don't care. In a very general, nebulous sense, hatred and love stem from the same source: namely, giving a shit.

i know what you're saying, but in some ways, especially these days, i think it takes a lot of love to be indifferent toward others. i don't mean indifference in that one is socially apathetic and steps on other people and doesn't care the least bit for their well-being. i mean indifference in the sense that one lets people live their lives without having to assume some sort of moral upperhand all the time. i think albert camus, for instance, though not as a good a writer as dostoevsky, had a much more healthy moral outlook. it's interesting to note that on several occasions in his writing dostoevsky takes pot shots at french/european culture. he was no doubt bitter over the hard life lessons that had foisted upon him in his youth, at the height of his idealism.

I agree with you, but I don't necessarily see the two concepts as diametric opposites. We are complicated meat machines, to be sure. I know from personal experience that it is fairly common to, say, love and hate someone/something simultaneously.

Wood Goblin wrote:Tolstoy by a country mile.

I'd also put Chekhov, Gogol, Osip Mandelstam, and Andrei Bely above Dostoyevsky, as far as Russian/Soviet literature goes.

I'm that Russian regard for Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky came as a response to Western regard for these writers, and that Russians generally rank Pushkin, Turgenev, and Chekhov much higher. I'm also told that, in Russian, Dostoyevsky is spectacularly unsubtle.

among the books written by the above writers, excluding of course Dostoyevsky's books, i have only read Dead Souls, The Forged Note, and Diary of a Superfluous Man, parts of Fathers and Sons. any specific suggestions then? never heard of Bely. have you ever read Bunin? he's supposed to be good.

i like Dead Souls very much, btw.

rayj wrote:...it is fairly common to, say, love and hate someone/something simultaneously.

For sure.

Eierdiebe wrote:

Wood Goblin wrote:Tolstoy by a country mile.

I'd also put Chekhov, Gogol, Osip Mandelstam, and Andrei Bely above Dostoyevsky, as far as Russian/Soviet literature goes.

I'm that Russian regard for Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky came as a response to Western regard for these writers, and that Russians generally rank Pushkin, Turgenev, and Chekhov much higher. I'm also told that, in Russian, Dostoyevsky is spectacularly unsubtle.

among the books written by the above writers, excluding of course Dostoyevsky's books, i have only read Dead Souls, The Forged Note, and Diary of a Superfluous Man, parts of Fathers and Sons. any specific suggestions then? never heard of Bely. have you ever read Bunin? he's supposed to be good.

i like Dead Souls very much, btw.

Gogol's short stories are excellent, except for "Diary of a Madman," which is childish. And I actually didn't care much for Fathers and Sons.

Bely wrote Petersburg, which Nabokov considered to be one of the five greatest novels in the history of literature. I read it fifteen years ago, so my memory of it isn't the greatest, but I loved it.

By Tolstoy, you should at least read Anna Karenina. It's in my personal top five. War and Peace is also amazing, as are several of his short stories.

I've seen one Chekhov play but not ready any. However, I've read dozens and dozens of his short stories. Any volume of selected stories is a good place to start. Read as many of his short stories as you can. It's pretty safe to say that Chekhov has had more influence on contemporary short fiction than any other writer in the entire history of literature. Probably 95% of all contemporary short story writers owe him restitution (the other 5% should be cutting checks to Kafka).

Russians consider Pushkin's Eugene Onegin to be their national poem. He occupies the position in Russian lit that Shakespeare occupies in English lit. I read Nabokov's translation twice and, well, I really wish I could read Russian. I'm told that every translation is awful.

Mandelstam has been translated several times, and my experience has been that the most "faithful" translations are also the most limp. W. S. Merwin published a book of translations that he wrote in conjuction with a Russian lit scholar. I cannot say for certain how faithful they are to the originals, but as poetry, they shimmer.

will heed your recommendations. i'm interested though if anyone else here -- i think we've got some serious bibliophiles in our ranks -- would agree with your statement about chekov, the 95% thing.

speaking of chekhov, have you read the raymond carver story about chekov's last days? it's very good.

You know, it seems as if Russian literature was another topic nearly completely skipped by my education. Along with a million other interesting and potentially eye-opening topics, like genuine history, foreign affairs, and the Hundred-Years War. And I actually went to a university...there ought to be a law.