clocker bob wrote:

Wood Goblin wrote: What utter shit this is. The only reason you believe it is because you also believe that Human Rights Watch can't be trusted and because you insist that the photographs of said graves have been doctored.

Don't put words in my mouth.

The sizes of the mass graves were exaggerated. The war crimes of Milosevic were exaggerated. I understand that 'exaggerated' means 'to enlarge beyond truth'- do you understand the word 'exaggerated' to mean that I am saying that the Serbs had clean hands? When you react to words that are not there, you look like a kneejerk apologist.

Clever--quote an article that lists ridiculous numbers of dead civilians (100,000-200,000) and then claim victory when the actual number of dead falls short of that. You tried this with me once before, and when I posted articles and photos that rebutted your claims, IIRC, you claimed that my sources were bad.

From the BBC: German forensic experts have been investigating a mass grave in the south-western Kosovan town of Orahovac.

By Tuesday they had exhumed 15 sets of human remains out of an estimated total of up to 90. The site was discovered on Friday. . . . Forensic scientists working for the war crimes tribunal have investigated more than 150 mass grave sites in Kosovo since June, when Nato troops moved into the province on the heels of retreating Serb forces. . . .
They have recovered thousands of bodies, but there are hundreds more possible sites to examine.

Here's another BBC story about mass graves in Kosovo.

There are plenty of photos available on the web. Did they find 200,000 bodies? No, of course not, but that was a shitty estimate to begin with. (No, I don't particularly care who made that estimate.)

clocker bob wrote:Korea? Vietnam? Laos? Cambodia? El Salvador? GRENADA?? Panama? Nicaragua? Cuba? Angola? Afghanistan? Chile? Uruguay? Guatemala?Iraq?? Iran? Libya? Hezbollah? Hamas?

Nice mix of exaggerated conditions (most) and actually terrible conditions (Hussein-era Iraq,* Cuba, Afghanistan).

*I strongly opposed the current war, but come on, Hussein was a tyrant.

let's also ask why there were no serbs left in kosovo. Why the albanian majority? Go back to WW2 where the serbs were pretty much driven from their homes or killed by albanians in concert with germany. I can't remember the exact numbers but in 50 years or so the serb population went from 70% to 30%.

The KLA was on the CIA's list of top 10 terrorist organizations and then magically turned into freedom fighters.

Remember when the serb forces supposedly massacred the caravan of albanian refugees. Reports all over the place from albanians crossing the border about it. Turned out to be nato forces. There was so much missinformation being spouted out. I remember one reported for the LA times and one for the Guardian, I think. They both sneaked into the country and stayed there during the war. Both reported the same thing. What the NATO spokesman was saying was utter lies.

There were certainly atrocities committed. The serbs were heavy handed and brutal. But it was no worse than isrealies and the Palestinians and the palestinians have more of a claim to the land.

It is kind of ironic that Milosevic came into power basically be manipulating the fact that kosovo serbs were so mistreated.

Wood Goblin wrote: Clever--quote an article that lists ridiculous numbers of dead civilians (100,000-200,000) and then claim victory when the actual number of dead falls short of that.

Claim victory?? I'm right. When the Clinton administration was promoting the war, these are examples of the language and the numbers they were throwing around:

Thus, a week before the bombings began, David Scheffer, U.S. State Department ambassador at large for war crime issues, announced that "we have upwards of about 100,000 [ethnic Albanian] men that we cannot account for" in Kosovo. A month later, the State Department claimed that up to 500,000 Kosovo Albanians were missing and feared dead. By mid-May U.S. Secretary of Defense William Cohen stated that 100,000 military-aged men had vanished and might have been killed by the Serbs. Not long after-as public support for the war began to wane-Ambassador Scheffer escalated the 100,000 figure to "as many as 225,000 ethnic Albanian men aged between 14 and 59" who remained unaccounted. He considered this to be one of the greatest genocidal crimes against a civilian population. Indeed it was, if true.

And you call this 'quoting some ridiculous article'?

wood goblin wrote:quote an article that lists ridiculous numbers of dead civilians (100,000-200,000) and then claim victory when the actual number of dead falls short of that.

If you can't figure it out yet, I am right about US motherfucking warmongering officials squeezing hyperbole out their asses to promote the bombing- it's not some article, it's the public record. We'll politely call that 'exaggeration', but we both know it's frame up and murder perpetrated by liars.

How many arguments will be started with me on this forum by people who forget that www.google.com exists? It's embarrassing to see such people try to get their bullshit laden kites off the crowd.

Wood Goblin wrote: *I strongly opposed the current war, but come on, Hussein was a tyrant.

THAT'S NOT THE POINT! If you have to lie to promote a war, then the credibility of the nation suffers! Do you not care about that, or do you just rationalize everything according to what you want history to look like??

on top of that. The agreed truce that was heralded as a great NATO victory was almost identical to the proposed solution the serbs offered in france before the bombing even began. A proposal that was unworkable for the NATO allies cause they wanted to bomb and weaken serbia.

kebabdylan wrote:The KLA was on the CIA's list of top 10 terrorist organizations and then magically turned into freedom fighters.

The KLA handles drug distribution for the CIA, and they handle money laundering for the CIA, and just like the mujahadeen of Afghanistan, they morph into whatever role the CIA needs them for in the War on Terror- for us, against us, doesn't matter, they're like human silly putty. Ask Dr. Research, Wood Goblin, to look into that.

kebabdylan wrote:There were certainly atrocities committed. The serbs were heavy handed and brutal. But it was no worse than isrealies and the Palestinians and the palestinians have more of a claim to the land.

I don't remember ever seeing Wood Goblin even once in a sixty page thread on war crimes committed by Israel this past summer in Lebanon. I guess war crimes unfolding on TV day after day don't spark outrage from Captain Human Rights.

Wood Goblin wrote: Did they find 200,000 bodies? No, of course not, but that was a shitty estimate to begin with. (No, I don't particularly care who made that estimate.)

You owe me an apology for disputing my characterization of the run-up to the war as full of exaggerations. When your public officials lie, you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to excuse that away. "I don't particularly care who made that estimate."?? What a shitty relaxed attitude you have about the power of public officials to demonize people. Look at what happened in Waco or to Randy Weaver or to Leonard Peltier if you need to understand what can happen when nobody demands that governments be careful with the facts!

I'm not apologizing for jack shit. You're the one claiming that the "tyranny" of Milosevic was exaggerated--and yes, you put "tyranny" in quotes, to ensure that we all understood that you were using the term facetiously. Fine, some US officials overestimated the number of missing Kosovars--of course, I'll also note that half of those quotes say than the Albanian men "are unaccounted for," which doesn't mean "are dead" last time I checked. Michael Parenti helpfully adds the last bit when the officials' words don't match his assumptions.

Oh, wait, you didn't note that you were quoting Michael Parenti or source your quote. Did you not want me to comment on this? Parenti, incidentally, also has claimed that the massacre of Srebenica never happened. He also apparently stated (in his book about Yugoslavia) that Muslims shot at themselves during the bombing of Sarejevo. I find few people less deserving of my trust or respect than that despicable, biased, reflexive idiot of a man.

Incidentally, I just now learned that Milosevic sided with Bush I during the first Gulf War.