Crime of the Century: Iraq

31
clocker bob wrote: For my fantasitical scenario of the people awakening from their slumber and learning to live independently from the nanny state again, there must be a schism between the people and the visible 'pretend' government, and there must also be a schism between the ranks of ordinary people serving in the military and the traitors who have captured the higher ranks.


Here's where we differ. I agree with you, and I guess we share a lot of the same views, but I don't believe that our Government was 'noble' in the first place. No one "captured" the seat of power, it's always been in the hands of the privileged few. One could go so far as to say, the same few. I don't think any government was ever on the up-and-up with its citizens, not in 1776 or now.
These scenarios are carefully planned out, to exercise control, to further an agenda we'll never fully know, unless we wake up, but the vast majority of people are docile, and complacent, and generally "go with the flow". I'd like to think the 'wake-up call' is somewhere down the road, sooner than later, but only time will tell.

Crime of the Century: Iraq

32
Skronk wrote: No one "captured" the seat of power, it's always been in the hands of the privileged few.


Yes, the privileged few have always steered the ship, but I think that power was more diffuse 230 years ago, significantly more diffuse 120 years ago, and the shift from 'visible government: still a viable entity, albeit under enormous influence by the privileged' to 'visible government: no longer a viable entity, largely under the control of untouchable and virtually unidentifiable elites' is something that has taken place over the past 94 years. There was a real ( and threatening ) populist movement in this country after the Civil War up until the Great Depression, built from a growing middle class that grew from strong labor organizations and a strong manufacturing base. There is no populist movement today, other than that of the illegal immigrants. There is a collection of disorganized pissed-off people in America, and they are disorganized because they are not tied together through unions and through similar jobs involving 'real work' ( not that service and retail is not 'real work', but I mean real work in the sense of 'making things' ).

Maybe I have romanticized the founding fathers too much- maybe the leaders were always committed to screwing the masses, right from day one- but I look at the Constitution and the writings of Jefferson and Washington and Madison and Paine, etc. and I think, "How could they have made these laws if they did not want the common man to succeed in America?" They favored white males, of course, but they did put in place a republic that was sound in design. It contained barriers to a new oligarchy taking the country back from us, but we slept at the wheel and let it happen anyway. I remain of the opinion that America, while guilty of great crimes of empire throughout its history, was still on balance a place where the majority could guide the country's course for much of our history. And now it isn't. We have wars nobody wants, trade policies nobody wants, presidents who weren't elected. The majority is in chains, and it wasn't always this way, not to this degree.

Crime of the Century: Iraq

33


Tony Benn was on fire.

The look on John Bolton's face was priceless. He is a disgusting, heartless individual. Here's another example:

BBC wrote:Former ambassador to the UN John Bolton told the BBC that before any ceasefire Washington wanted Israel to eliminate Hezbollah's military capability.

Mr Bolton said an early ceasefire would have been "dangerous and misguided".

He said the US decided to join efforts to end the conflict only when it was clear Israel's campaign wasn't working.

...

Mr Bolton, a controversial and blunt-speaking figure, said he was "damned proud of what we did" to prevent an early ceasefire.


Whilst I found the politics behind their stalling emetic at the time, I could at least see some logic behind it. But to look back, after knowing what a murderous failure the decision was, after over 1,000 civilians were killed, and still claim to be "damn proud", to say such a thing gives a weird glimpse into his psychology.

Crime of the Century: Iraq

34
sparky wrote:The look on John Bolton's face was priceless. He is a disgusting, heartless individual.


He tried to get some more lies over this morning.
raw story 3-25-07 wrote: Former ambassador to the UN John Bolton on CNN's "Late Edition" today made the case that four years into the Iraq war removing Saddam Hussein was "unquestionably" the right thing to do, even though he did not turn out to have the stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction that formed the basis for the Bush administration's case for going to war.

"[Saddam Hussein] and his regime were the threat to international peace and security. The president never made the argument that he constituted an imminent threat," Bolton said.


Of course, he's lying.

"There's no question that Iraq was a threat to the people of the United States."
• White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan, 8/26/03

"We ended the threat from Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction."
• President Bush, 7/17/03

Iraq was "the most dangerous threat of our time."
• White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 7/17/03

"Saddam Hussein is no longer a threat to the United States because we removed him, but he was a threat...He was a threat. He's not a threat now."
• President Bush, 7/2/03

"Absolutely."
• White House spokesman Ari Fleischer answering whether Iraq was an "imminent threat," 5/7/03

"We gave our word that the threat from Iraq would be ended."
• President Bush 4/24/03

"The threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction will be removed."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 3/25/03

"It is only a matter of time before the Iraqi regime is destroyed and its threat to the region and the world is ended."
• Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke, 3/22/03

"The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder."
• President Bush, 3/19/03

"The dictator of Iraq and his weapons of mass destruction are a threat to the security of free nations."
• President Bush, 3/16/03

"This is about imminent threat."
• White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 2/10/03

Iraq is "a serious threat to our country, to our friends and to our allies."
• Vice President Dick Cheney, 1/31/03

Iraq poses "terrible threats to the civilized world."
• Vice President Dick Cheney, 1/30/03

Iraq "threatens the United States of America."
• Vice President Cheney, 1/30/03

"Iraq poses a serious and mounting threat to our country. His regime has the design for a nuclear weapon, was working on several different methods of enriching uranium, and recently was discovered seeking significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 1/29/03

"Well, of course he is.”
• White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett responding to the question “is Saddam an imminent threat to U.S. interests, either in that part of the world or to Americans right here at home?”, 1/26/03

"Saddam Hussein possesses chemical and biological weapons. Iraq poses a threat to the security of our people and to the stability of the world that is distinct from any other. It's a danger to its neighbors, to the United States, to the Middle East and to the international peace and stability. It's a danger we cannot ignore. Iraq and North Korea are both repressive dictatorships to be sure and both pose threats. But Iraq is unique. In both word and deed, Iraq has demonstrated that it is seeking the means to strike the United States and our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 1/20/03

"The Iraqi regime is a threat to any American. ... Iraq is a threat, a real threat."
• President Bush, 1/3/03

"The world is also uniting to answer the unique and urgent threat posed by Iraq whose dictator has already used weapons of mass destruction to kill thousands."
• President Bush, 11/23/02

"I would look you in the eye and I would say, go back before September 11 and ask yourself this question: Was the attack that took place on September 11 an imminent threat the month before or two months before or three months before or six months before? When did the attack on September 11 become an imminent threat? Now, transport yourself forward a year, two years or a week or a month...So the question is, when is it such an immediate threat that you must do something?"
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 11/14/02

"Saddam Hussein is a threat to America."
• President Bush, 11/3/02

"I see a significant threat to the security of the United States in Iraq."
• President Bush, 11/1/02

"There is real threat, in my judgment, a real and dangerous threat to American in Iraq in the form of Saddam Hussein."
• President Bush, 10/28/02

"The Iraqi regime is a serious and growing threat to peace."
• President Bush, 10/16/02

"There are many dangers in the world, the threat from Iraq stands alone because it gathers the most serious dangers of our age in one place. Iraq could decide on any given day to provide a biological or chemical weapon to a terrorist group or individual terrorists."
• President Bush, 10/7/02

"The Iraqi regime is a threat of unique urgency."
• President Bush, 10/2/02

"There's a grave threat in Iraq. There just is."
• President Bush, 10/2/02

"This man poses a much graver threat than anybody could have possibly imagined."
• President Bush, 9/26/02

"No terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 9/19/02

"Some have argued that the nuclear threat from Iraq is not imminent - that Saddam is at least 5-7 years away from having nuclear weapons. I would not be so certain. And we should be just as concerned about the immediate threat from biological weapons. Iraq has these weapons."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 9/18/02

"Iraq is busy enhancing its capabilities in the field of chemical and biological agents, and they continue to pursue an aggressive nuclear weapons program. These are offensive weapons for the purpose of inflicting death on a massive scale, developed so that Saddam Hussein can hold the threat over the head of any one he chooses. What we must not do in the face of this mortal threat is to give in to wishful thinking or to willful blindness."
• Vice President Dick Cheney, 8/29/02

BLITZER: But the president, with all due respect, and the secretary of state, when he went to the U.N. Security Council, they gave the impression there was an imminent threat from Saddam Hussein.

BOLTON: No, sir.

BLITZER: That he was about to use those stockpiles in an awful way.

BOLTON: No, sir.

Crime of the Century: Iraq

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clocker bob wrote:Maybe I have romanticized the founding fathers too much- maybe the leaders were always committed to screwing the masses, right from day one- but I look at the Constitution and the writings of Jefferson and Washington and Madison and Paine, etc. and I think, "How could they have made these laws if they did not want the common man to succeed in America?" They favored white males, of course, but they did put in place a republic that was sound in design. It contained barriers to a new oligarchy taking the country back from us, but we slept at the wheel and let it happen anyway.


A lot of the writings I read from 'founding father' types many years ago directly addressed issues within the system as it stands that we are dealing with now. For instance, Adam Smith is often quoted as the guy all-for supporting the concept of 'division of labor'...however, in the same oft-quoted paper, he goes on to extrapolate the dangers of that same principle.

While the founding father types were working within an 'elite-class' structure to be sure, a lot of their logic was sound and applicable to a wider class of people. Their writings should be required reading for anyone capable of reading. How we allowed ourselves to lose sight of their basic vision and regressed to where we are now is truly something of a crime.

Crime of the Century: Iraq

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rayj wrote: Adam Smith is often quoted as the guy all-for supporting the concept of 'division of labor'...however, in the same oft-quoted paper, he goes on to extrapolate the dangers of that same principle.


He does that often- praise free markets and then warn about unregulated markets, for another example. I think that because he was so religious, he found himself overestimating man's ability to contain his greed, because Smith seemed to think that men ( God's creations ) would behave honestly and fairly in an unregulated market, and that freedom to pursue wealth would translate to altruism, because the engine of wealth creation would improve everyone's lot the stronger it became.

Nice theory, but counting on men to behave is a lost cause. I think this is a dilemma faced by the religious over and over, and for me, the refusal of the religious to abandon God as their creator and accept man for what man obviously is verges on schizophrenic dementia. Man's bad behavior, which repeats itself over and over through history, points to man as flawed, but instead of accepting that, the religious say, "No, God made us good, but other men ( other unfaithful men or other non-Christian heretics ) have led us astray." Or they blame demonic influence for man's bad behavior. They need to face facts: man cannot be set free in an economy that glorifies greed. He must have a strong government that punishes the excesses of men.

Smith was profoundly religious, and saw the "invisible hand" as the mechanism by which a benevolent God administered a universe in which human happiness was maximised. He made it clear in his writings that quite considerable structure was required in society before the invisible hand mechanism could work efficiently. For example, property rights must be strong, and there must be widespread adherence to moral norms, such as prohibitions against theft and misrepresentation. Theft was, to Smith, the worst crime of all, even though a poor man stealing from a rich man may increase overall happiness. He even went so far as to say that the purpose of government is to defend the rich from the poor.

Here is a description of the way Smith imagined the universe operates:

* There is a benevolent deity who administers the world in such a way as to maximise human happiness.

* In order to do this he has created humans with a nature that leads them to act in a certain way.

* The world as we know it is pretty much perfect, and everyone is about equally happy. In particular, the rich are no happier than the poor.

* Although this means we should all be happy with our lot in life, our nature (which, remember, was created by God for the purpose of maximising happiness) leads us to think that we would be happier if we were wealthier.

* This is a good thing, because it leads us to struggle to become wealthier, thus increasing the sum total of human happiness via the mechanisms of exchange and division of labour.


Smith relies on a deity to supervise his proposed economy. That's a foolhardy allocation of responsibility.

Crime of the Century: Iraq

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New info on the Lancet study that began this thread:
Documents obtained by the BBC under a Freedom Of Information Act request have proven that despite public dismissal of last year's Iraq Death Toll study, published in The Lancet Medical Journal, British Government officials actually backed the methods used by scientists who concluded that more than 600,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion.

BBC march 26, 2007 wrote: Advisers told ministers not to rubbish Iraq deaths study

Owen Bennett-Jones BBC Monday, March 26, 2007

The British government was advised against publicly criticising a report estimating that 655,000 Iraqis had died due to the war, the BBC has learnt. Iraqi Health Ministry figures put the toll at less than 10% of the total in the survey, published in the Lancet. But the Ministry of Defence's chief scientific adviser said the survey's methods were "close to best practice" and the study design was "robust". Another expert agreed the method was "tried and tested".


Found on page 56 of some newspaper, I'm sure.

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