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spoot wrote:There are many substantial differences between the two countries, but Moore only pointed out the similarities...Or did he point out the socialized health care shit? I don't remember it.


Yes! In his ode to Canada he ironically prefaces a Canadian politician's shpiel about socialized health care and other signs of civilization by saying: "and the politicians talk about funny stuff like..."

I feel like his agenda is coloring his observations, or at least the way he presents his observations.


Dare I say this is classism? If you don't display the mannerisms of the intelligentsia then you lack the objectivity that is necessary to get to the truth. Bullshit. There's no such thing as a neutral or objective position, it's just a question of how subtly one hides one's proclivities or cloaks one's propaganda. MM is making his stance explicit rather than hiding behind some veil of faux - objectivity.

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>>>I feel like his agenda is coloring his observations, or at least the way he presents his observations.

>>Dare I say this is classism? If you don't display the mannerisms of the intelligentsia then you lack the objectivity that is necessary to get to the truth. Bullshit.

you are making stuff up to back up your own argument

'classism?' if i think michael moore is a blowhard, i must've had a cushy upbringing? if we're swinging dicks around about who was poorest as a child, i might not win, but i'll be close. and i think michael moore, regardless of his 'mannerisms,' is a propagandist through and through. like all good propagandists, he tilts EVERYTHING towards whatever point he wants to make. he throws in some vague philosophical shit so he can have something to throw up his hands about and make believe that he is just 'searching for answers.'

>>There's no such thing as a neutral or objective position, it's just a question of how subtly one hides one's proclivities or cloaks one's propaganda. MM is making his stance explicit rather than hiding behind some veil of faux - objectivity.

are you joking? michael moore blatantly obscures the truth by picking on easy targets and ignoring harder questions ALL THE TIME. btw, your 'polar opposite' noam chomsky does pretty much the same thing. i like him a lot less than michael moore b/c he's so much less entertaining.

this is an easy target, but the fact remains that every time i see michael moore, i think of a caption on the cover of gang of four's _entertainment!_ lp: 'i spend most of my money on myself to keep myself fat.'

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eml1122 wrote:alex,
i didnt know the question had turned to what impassioned me or my upbrining for that matter. i thought we were discussing the hypothetical situation of Michael Moore running for president or maybe we are discussing your misplaced hero worship.
but let me explain my point to you in a bit more detail. Michael Moore is a film maker who uses humor and a political stance to make a movie that entertains the audience. my response was not anti-Moore, i like his movies. however, i realize that they are movies and i realize that Michael Moore looks like a genius because he can edit the perfect shot of him standing next to the kid in the wheelchair.
and alex, i am truly sorry that you had a troubled childhood.


No offense intended. I worry when people have a dispassionate response, whether positive or negative, to the movie because that renders it just as ineffectual as any dry academic tome. This movie is about as un - manipulative as they get so I'm surprised that you see such calculation in it. Your response is interesting and I'd like to know more about how you came to it. I deduce that you come from a different background than him because you're skeptical about his motives. The meat of the movie isn't in shots of him next to the wheelchair kid. Sure his occasionally maudlin approach to the effects of violence can be annoying to us academes but on the other hand it's just a frank portrayal of the shitty things guns can do.

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tmidgett wrote:... is a propagandist through and through. like all good propagandists, he tilts EVERYTHING towards whatever point he wants to make.


Propagandists operate with guile. Michael Moore doesn't try to obscure his proclivities.

are you joking? michael moore blatantly obscures the truth by picking on easy targets and ignoring harder questions ALL THE TIME.


What harder questions is he fucking ignoring?!

btw, your 'polar opposite' noam chomsky does pretty much the same thing. i like him a lot less than michael moore b/c he's so much less entertaining.


Polar opposite? Who said that? They have the same ideologies and are working toward them in opposite ways, one entertainingly and one not.

this is an easy target, but the fact remains that every time i see michael moore, i think of a caption on the cover of gang of four's _entertainment!_ lp: 'i spend most of my money on myself to keep myself fat.'


The truth comes out, you don't like him because he's uncouth. And I'll admit I probably LIKE him in large part because he is.

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The truth comes out, you don't like him because he's uncouth. And I'll admit I probably LIKE him in large part because he is.


Alex, this is not the truth. It's clear that much of Michael Moore's appeal is in his uncouthness - he's the common man standing up against corporations & governments who don't care about the little guy. Right. That's why people like him.

The main offense to Michael Moore stated so far on this board is that he's the liberal equivalent of Rush Limbaugh. To me this means: when he has a point he wants to get across, he carefully selects his topics and interview subjects so that nothing will be presented that doesn't further his agenda. Like Rush, he "doesn't try to obscure his proclivities."

I tend to like Michael Moore's stuff to a considerable degree because I agree with him - the same reason Rush's supporters like him. They both present interesting and pertinent, and even sometimes reliable information to strengthen their arguments. For some reason, though, I expect a lefty to at least make an effort towards avoiding excess bias. Say, by interviewing an eloquent NRA member, rather than a senile or delusional one.

Rush never interviews difficult subjects, and neither does Michael Moore. They both avoid questions they can't answer easily with some sort of "what is wrong with this picture, people?" comment or gesture. I think it's accurate to say they're counterparts to one another.

I like to think that at least a few thoughtful conservatives dislike Rush for these same reasons.

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spoot wrote:Alex, this is not the truth. It's clear that much of Michael Moore's appeal is in his uncouthness - he's the common man standing up against corporations & governments who don't care about the little guy. Right. That's why people like him.


I've heard quite a few people slight him based on superficialities and when people criticize his "biases" by throwing out pure abstractions without any specific examples I can only counter their critiques by guessing that what motivates them is MM's demeanor or mannerisms or whatever.

I think everyone who has seen the movie agrees that they enjoyed the experience, i.e. were "entertained" and I KNOW for that very reason some people decide that it's skewed or propagandistic. If you're enjoying yourself you must be getting duped, is the logic. Very 19th century!

There were 165 gun deaths in Canada last year and 11,127 in the United States yet Canada is hugely saturated with guns. How can one approach this fact in a balanced way, getting "both sides" of the issue? Interview some of the 11,000 shooters? That would only bolster the anti - gun mafia.

Say, by interviewing an eloquent NRA member, rather than a senile or delusional one.


Michael Moore IS an eloquent NRA member! The first scene in the movie is him winning the marksmanship award from the NRA. He was raised on guns. He establishes the movie from the very outset as a sort of LAMENT about the political affiliations you get associated with if you own a gun in the US. But any "balanced" portrayal of the NRA would by definition be the most insidious form of propaganda. The NRA was formed by klansmen as a front when they were forced by the courts to disband the newly outlawed Klan. This then began a process that continues today of obscuring the ideological affiliations of the NRA by publicly presenting a more moderate face. The highest form of propaganda!

So I can't see anything fruitful coming from interviewing anyone even remotely connected to the NRA. Again, people who claim he doesn't portray gun moderates must have somehow missed the relentless aggrandizing of Canada and Canadian culture. Until people come up with specific examples then I can only assume that the "unbalanced" accusations are made because of the things I put forth: his class, the entertaining aspect of the film, his slovenliness, his id, his girth, his pie in the face of traditional academic or journalistic methods etc etc...

The main offense to Michael Moore stated so far on this board is that he's the liberal equivalent of Rush Limbaugh. To me this means: when he has a point he wants to get across, he carefully selects his topics and interview subjects so that nothing will be presented that doesn't further his agenda. Like Rush, he "doesn't try to obscure his proclivities."


Okay then, to approach this issue with even more equanimity I'll ask, what kind of documentary would Rush Limbaugh himself make to explain the reality of the overwhelmingly disproportionate gun death toll in the US? Who would he interview? One begins to ask, at this point, if it's even possible to approach in a "balanced" way a statistic that from any perspective has such undeniable, profoundly pathological implications about American culture. Presumably a big reason you all decry MM's "bias" is that he's abandoning any hope of appealing to that huge conservative sector of responsible, upstanding Americans who nevertheless really like their guns. Well watching this movie won't dissuade them from liking their guns, it'll hopefully motivate them to improve their damn PR.

I tend to like Michael Moore's stuff to a considerable degree because I agree with him - the same reason Rush's supporters like him. They both present interesting and pertinent, and even sometimes reliable information to strengthen their arguments. For some reason, though, I expect a lefty to at least make an effort towards avoiding excess bias. Rush never interviews difficult subjects, and neither does Michael Moore. They both avoid questions they can't answer easily with some sort of "what is wrong with this picture, people?" comment or gesture. I think it's accurate to say they're counterparts to one another.


Here it is happening again. More abstractions about how "biased" Michael Moore is without concrete examples. But if I speculate (openly, I might add) as to what affinities YOU might have that would predispose you to knock Michael Moore then I'm "making stuff up to fit your argument". I'll ask again, what is one example of a "hard question" that Michael Moore evades? What would people say is a documentary that achieves the perfect "balance" that eludes Michael Moore?

time for lunch

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I've heard quite a few people slight him based on superficialities and when people criticize his "biases" by throwing out pure abstractions without any specific examples I can only counter their critiques by guessing that what motivates them is MM's demeanor or mannerisms or whatever.


I've heard quite a few people slight him based on superficialities and when people criticize his "biases" by throwing out pure abstractions without any specific examples I can only counter their critiques by guessing that what motivates them is MM's demeanor or mannerisms or whatever.


A funny story - some friends and I were talking in line for a movie about Bowling For Columbine, and this girl behind us says "you know, he made all of that up". I asked her "what, specifically" and she said "everything". I asked her if he made up the stuff that I had read about 5 or 6 years ago back then or just for the movie. That seemed to do the trick. It sort of spells out the polarizing force of a guy like Michael Moore and goes a long way in explaining why things don't seem to ever get better. alex wrote about the best way to explain away all of the American gun deaths versus the Canadian ones; for people with a foregone conclusion, the answer is: Michael Moore made them up.

I like MM because he doesn't give up.

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alex wrote:There were 165 gun deaths in Canada last year and 11,127 in the United States yet Canada is hugely saturated with guns. How can one approach this fact in a balanced way, getting "both sides" of the issue?


If you're going to create an argument using such numbers you should probably also mention that:

The total population of Canada last year was 31,902,000 versus 287,676,000 for the United States. Factoring in your gun death numbers, that equates to a gun death/population percentage of .0005% for Canada versus .0039% for the States. Roughly 8x higher for the States. Still significant, but far less so than the 67x higher looking solely at the numbers you gave.

alex wrote:time for lunch


Are you sure you're not Michael Moore?

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D. Wayne Miller wrote:Bowling for Columbine was an entertaining movie, but the whole Cult of Michael Moore thing is out of hand. I hope I'm not the only person who leans to the left who gets more than a little embarassed by the guy. Check this:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html


Jesus. I, as a self - professed hagiographer, could come up with better criticisms of the movie and of Michael Moore than this guy did. Is this the best you can do?

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