Robert Johnson and DJs are/were both oppressed people(s) forced to quench their thirst for music in ways that they could control. Robert made a guitar out of crap. DJs did the same thing, except they used all instruments as a model. That bass, that farfisa, that guitar, that drum roll. Just because the art is essentially lost already (rubbing), it holds no bearing on it's origin.

My argument is lemonade. Rap and Blues are original forms born from the inventions of oppressed people who had to take matters into their own hands. When you create a form of music, you've done it with instruments.

enframed wrote:in fact, you are no longer allowed to use feedback because you are taking a previously made sound and re-using it.

Continuing the semantic argument: Using a bass head for a guitar....

Koff koff.

Steve V. wrote:
Like I said, I was asking. Makes a little more sense now, and helps me understand your argument a little more.

And a sampler CAN be an instrument if you pump original segments into it and manipulate them. But if you're using other people's sounds and music to sample, it's a stretch to call it an instrument.

It's not a stretch, no.

Steve V. wrote:But a turntable CAN'T CREATE SOUNDS. IT PLAYS SOUNDS ALREADY ON A RECORD...there's no CREATION. It's MANIPULATION. You can slow it down or speed it up, shit, maybe even add effects. But what is on that record is what is being played.

If I take an existing piece of art, and alter it, so it's completely different then the original, I've created something new. The same goes for a turntable. Those stutters, and pitch shifts weren't on the original recording, so the turntablist has created something new.

Steve V. wrote:You tell me how you can distinguish one guy's scratching from another, and I swear to god I'll send you money in the mail. There's nothing musical or creative about scratching a record. It makes the same sound every time I've heard it. Maybe time it is faster, some time it is slower, but it is the same principle with no variation. There's never been original scratching. It is the same shit in different bags. The first guy who ever did it MAY have been original, but it's just photocopied and stupid now.

Jesus, can you tell every guitar player apart? Most guitar playing sucks but I'm not dismissing all guitar playing.Can you tell me who exactly is banging every piece of sheet metal on Haber Mensch? I can't tell most players apart, but they still make interesting new sounds.

Skronk wrote:Scratching is using a turntable in an original way. See?

Steve V. wrote:No.

Then you've got bigger problems.

Steve V. wrote:Cellos are stringed instruments with a long history. Guitars are string instruments with a long history. You could much more easily and logically link using those two instruments together than you could a guitar to a turntable and vice versa.

The turntable has been around since the late 1800's. It has a long history. Longer than the electric guitar. But it doesn't mean that one makes the other look like shit.

Steve V. wrote:I have respect for the fact that there is a certain amount of ingeniuity in creating a unique brand of sound using turntables and giving black people in the projects a new way to rise to prominence and gain financial success, but it ain't a fucking instrument, and I don't think there's a single DJ on the planet who could hold a fucking candle to Robert Johnson.

Notice you're the only one comparing Robert Johnson to a DJ? And since DJ's don't make blues, or play the guitar. you can't compare them at all, even at the creative level, it's two different playing fields.

Steve V. wrote:I was talking about their creativity, not their instruments. Ubercat seemed to attempt a logical connection between Johnson basically creating a style of music that transcended many boundaries and influenced millions of artists to a DJ who influenced not many people outside of those within the genre. That's the connection. Creativity. Are you telling me Skribble is as good as Robert Johnson in terms of pure unadulterated creativity? Psha!

Not Skibble, Skribble sucks. DJ Shadow definitely made better mood music than Robert Johnson, but it's still wrong to compare them, on any level.

Skronk wrote:Scratching is in the same vein as Musique concrète. Anything can be used to make music, pots and pans, sheet metal (Einsturzende), toys (Residents, Cocorosie). To say that a turntable made piece isn't music is just plain ignorant.

Duke Ellington said it best. There's only two kinds of music, good and bad.

Oh Jesus, Skronk Cocorosied the thread.

This is the same argument Classical and/or Jazz Purists use to degrade rock music. "It's not music, because it's noisy" or "You aren't supposed to use it like that". These are lame arguments from people who don't know what the hell they're talking about.

ubercat wrote:Continuing the semantic argument: Using a bass head for a guitar....

Koff koff.

exactly. and what's this about pizzicato on violins? better knock that off. violins are made for bowing.

Mark Hansen wrote:Oh Jesus, Skronk Cocorosied the thread.

Crap. Time to lock the thread. Too bad. I was enjoying it.

simmo wrote:The record scratching solo in Fog's "Pneumonia" is just beautiful.

Agreed. Here, listen.

Anybody on this thread telling me music can't be made of prerecorded sound needs to be more respected by me than John Cage, Christian Marclay, and Negativland. Good luck, fucker.

BadComrade wrote:the "hey, I'm singin' over the telephone effect"

I hate that too. So gross.

blackmarket wrote:

BadComrade wrote:the "hey, I'm singin' over the telephone effect"

I hate that too. So gross.

Didn't Hr record a vocal from jail, via telephone?

I, for one, would like to hear chopped and screwed Shellac.

I love remixes, I love sampling, I love any sort of manipulative production technique. I'm not a big fan of most turntablism, but I'm not a big fan of most guitar solos either.

But I mean, The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel? Incredible. Terminator X? Fuck yes. Who gives a shit what is going into the device: if it makes manipulated noise, it has become an instrument.