NerblyBear wrote:I would be surprised if Gramsci has even read the Bible.

...

Five years at a Church of England boarding school in New Zealand with chapel 4 days a week plus 4 hours theology class on top of that. That around 1200 hours of bible reading... not including reading for pleasure.

It's one of our great fictional texts, I agree.

Skronk wrote:I heard he made the first 'Food Not Bombs' to feed the community. I guess it turned out well.

This is good.

J. Burns wrote:Christ fucking hell. Are we still talking about this?

Isn't there like, a new Ex record, or some NOS 6L6 tubes we can talk about instead?

You are not Horsewhip!

Gramsci wrote:Is there anything different about this religion than all the others other than popularity and longevity?

This is what I'd like to see discussed: reasons for it's popularity and longevity.
I mean, Why?!

rachael wrote:

Gramsci wrote:Is there anything different about this religion than all the others other than popularity and longevity?

This is what I'd like to see discussed: reasons for it's popularity and longevity.
I mean, Why?!

They who have the gold make the rules, right? And there's lots of gold in the Vatican. The Holy Roman Empire covered pretty much all the major seafaring countries as the Europeans went out and conquered everything: Spain, France, Portugal, (Church of) England...

And as we know, the Roman Empire never died/it just changed into the Catholic Church.

That'd be my off-the-cuff guess, anyway.

rachael wrote:

Gramsci wrote:Is there anything different about this religion than all the others other than popularity and longevity?

This is what I'd like to see discussed: reasons for it's popularity and longevity.
I mean, Why?!

I'll have a pop:

What makes Christianity slightly more unique than most monotheist religions (which are naturally going to be more popular and easier to spread than polytheist faiths or more abstract beliefs) is that the various texts that make up the Bible show the emergence of ethical monotheism, rather than plain old monotheism. Unlike Islam or Judaism, God has several attempts to make new covenants with his chosen people and (crucially) seems to abandon the idea of an elect in favor of a beardy bastard dude who tells people to "spread to the good news" of equality and treating each other right. Already thats most of the corners of the religious pill sanded off, so its plenty easy for people to swallow. As long as people were aware that there was one God, who made moral demands of all people and was currently engaged in a process of improving his relationship with people, Christianity could spread - shit like Easter, Christmas, the Monarchy, whatever could be bolted to this and the central facts of the religion remained unaltered.

All Christianity needed was a series of institutional accidents to make sure that it was guarded and recorded for a few centuries, and by that time it was pretty much an immovable fixture of Western life. Then, in it's second millenium it became tied to idea like natural law, liberty, and divine right of rule which ensured a cultural dominance that continues to this present day. To take a leftie position here, I could add that I believe Christianity to be easily interpreted as supporting both the left (liberation theology, universal equality, the "city of my father on earth"), and the right (individualism, objectivism, libertarianism, sheep and goats) so whenever they had money or land enough to do so, the Christian churches necessitated themselves as part of politics, from major thinkers to tolerated parasites. For a local example, the spread of socialist and marxist literature in Wales is utterly tied to the factions of Christianity here and the workers would have no motivation for political movement outside of protest and riots if it wasn't for Christianity.

Lonesome Bulldog wrote:

You are not Horsewhip!

Not anymore, I'm not. I no longer wanted to post under the name of a defunct band that I feel attached to very little these days.

Pioughd is probably an even lamer Butthole Surfers album that Electriclarryland and Weird Revolution combined.

Everything they did after Hairway To Steven is practically unlistenable anyway.

big_dave wrote:

rachael wrote:

Gramsci wrote:Is there anything different about this religion than all the others other than popularity and longevity?

This is what I'd like to see discussed: reasons for it's popularity and longevity.
I mean, Why?!

I'll have a pop:

What makes Christianity slightly more unique than most monotheist religions (which are naturally going to be more popular and easier to spread than polytheist faiths or more abstract beliefs) is that the various texts that make up the Bible show the emergence of ethical monotheism, rather than plain old monotheism. Unlike Islam or Judaism, God has several attempts to make new covenants with his chosen people and (crucially) seems to abandon the idea of an elect in favor of a beardy bastard dude who tells people to "spread to the good news" of equality and treating each other right.

Yes, the monotheistic aspect helps because it provides a central focus for peoples' spiritual feelings.

I would say that the most important reason for the dominance of Christianity in the West is that it is not very difficult to become a Christian. Christ justifies his followers by faith rather than by works (cf. Paul's epistles), so, in contrast to Judaism and its Old Testament covenant, which required dozens upon dozens of rules and requirements for the proper following of the faith, Christianity merely requires that you open your heart to the Holy Spirit, get baptized, and follow Christ's teachings to the best of your ability. In fact, you can even backslide and wallow in sin and *still* be a Christian--albeit a wayward one. Repentance or confession is all it takes to bring you back into God's good graces.

Judaism, for instance, was never able to spread by means of missionaries, because there are so many rules and laws associated with it: not eating unclean food, for instance. It was even further marginalized because the New Testament constantly insults and vilifies the tribes of Israel for following an outmoded, onerous belief system. Before the Holocaust occurred, the Jews were truly marginalized. Things are different today.

Specifically, Protestantism is even easier to follow than Catholicism. To become a Catholic, there is a year-long confirmation process that you need to go through. This includes Bible study, meeting with your priest consistently, and proving to the Church that you are doing good works. To become a Protestant believer, all you need to do is get baptized and come to church once in a while. This is so easy that it's hard to be surprised that 90 percent of Americans claim to believe in God--and most of those are non-denominational or Protestant Christians.

The unfortunate thing is that, because it's so easy to call yourself a Christian these days, the term has almost lost all of its significance. Ever listen to one of those Christian radio stations? The intellectual barrenness of these programs is truly astonishing.

Now we see, in much contemporary American religious practices, that the term "Christianity" is practically inapplicable to what people believe in. Most modern-day American Christians haven't even seriously read the Bible or researched the history of their religion. They go to megachurches or backwater fundamentalist gatherings and talk about miracles and psychic phenomena, or they focus on issues like abortion or homosexuality, of which almost nothing is said in the Bible. I would say that modern-day American fundamentalism is more of a political movement than a religious one. Ever notice how more and more people these days are saying that they're "spiritual" instead of "religious", and that they don't like the word "religious" because it sounds too formal? I think that's because Americans are totally breaking with the past and just doing whatever the hell they feel like doing. In a way, that's pretty inspiring, but it also produces a bunch of ridiculous pabulum and charlatanry.

This is why Christianity spread and conquered so quickly.

Not to mention that it makes its god more accessible, by giving him a hierarchy of human intermediaries.

The human aspect of God, "the Son", makes Christianity much easier to deal with. Suddenly, gods no longer have to be these inaccessible, all-powerful, capricious and often angry beings who must be constantly appeased at the risk of our own peril. Now God can be a sort of friend, someone we can relate to. And in Catholicism, even if you feel yourself unworthy to pray directly to Jesus, you can always hit up a saint to put in a good word for you.

All this, plus the moral lesson of leniency and humility and universal family love, plus the forgiveness, I think makes for a stronger appeal than the pagan alternatives. Not to mention the "He died for our sins!!!" thing. The idea that a god would be so invested in the success of humanity that he would become human, and suffer pain and die... Well I imagine that had a really strong pull.

Another aspect of Judaism that discourages open conversion: it has the hurdle of being considered by its followers as a nationality or an extended family, "The Chosen People of God." This exclusivity, combined with the cultural disciplines, physical body modification (for males, anyway) and dietary restrictions, makes Judaism an unlikely faith for inspiring converts. Most converts to Judaism marry in, rather than converting on their own.