Who would Jesus bomb? Where would the Supply Side Christ drill for oil? Who would Jesus lie to? What lies would he tell? Who would Jesus take council from? Who would Jesus ignore?

I really wish the compassionate, just God my parents put so much faith in did exist, so his wrath could be visited on false prophets like Bush, Graham, Robertson, et al.

As it is, it's up to the people to cast off these demagogues. GO ANYONE-BUT-BUSH! You can do it! It's a lock! KER-EE! KER-EE! KER-EE!




. . what? . . . darn.

All this stuff about prophecies and proof and whether God exists or not is hooey. I think it was Jesus who said "without faith, I'm nothing," and he meant it - the power of any sort of spiritual belief has nothing to do with facts. The power is in the reliance on something which cannot be proved, whether that something is God, your own reincarnation, an afterlife surrounded by 300 honey-dipped virgins, a universe filled with nothing, etc. There is no sense arguing facts regarding faith, because faith exists, by definition, outside of the world of facts & proof etc. Jesus could just as well have said, "with proof, I'm nothing."

"Religious" people don't often think like this. They think that their version is the right version, & so of course they go out and fuck shit up.

Regarding #3: Is this supposed to be a pro-Christian argument? The notion that religion is an instinct implies that any specific religious or spiritual belief is pretty much random, & not possibly "correct," since it's the instinct that's bringing people to the religion. The truth of the specific belief has nothing to do with it. I can't imagine a Christian using this argument as a means to convince someone of the validity of their beliefs.

Topic 1:

There is an issue here that gets sidestepped very often, which the Right Honorable Rev. Midget touched upon in response to Dr. Intern_8033's point #3,

that of the perception of Religion vs. Spirituality.

tmidgett wrote:

Intern_8033 wrote:Religion doesn’t just fulfill some community niche it’s a biological human imperative.

the human imperative is to question as a means of seeking knowledge.

Religion is spirituality commodofied. Spirituality is the walk you take through life's greater questions, religion is the bus on the highway that takes you and a bunch of other seekers on that same journey.

Everybody's going on the bus, You'll like it! It's a smooth ride, and you'll meet lots of people who like the ideas of a nice smooth bus ride across the land! Now don't worry about where we are going, enjoy the bus ride! Besides, the driver has a radio to the head office and tells us what we need to know and where we need to go.


For some people, this suffices. I don't hold it against them. In fact, we'll probably have stories to share about the places that we go.

But I prefer walking.


---

Topic 2:

Religion is about power, whether naturally occurring or sought. This is evident throughout the Bible.

Within this thought, parable:

I have no doubt that there were individuals who trekked away on walkabout through the desert and/or wilderness and came back to civilization with profound insights into the human condition, obstensibly from a "Higher Being". We'll call them People Type 1. These same individuals, through their experiences could be highly attuned to the greater harmony and well-being of their community, and could provide unselfish guidence that would be proven out through time, by the Will of the Higher Being.

I also have no doubt that within this same community there would be individuals who harbored jealously, insecurity (et. al.) and who craved attention. We'll call them People Type 2.

When a Type 2 person witnesses a Type 1 person's emergence from the desert to be embraced by the community as spiritual totem, something clicks in their brain. This is the understanding of Power.

Type 2 observes the community's benign favoritism towards Type 1 - the listening, the directions taken. The status increase. Maybe Type 1 gets some better food, better seat, newer donkey, attention from chicks, whatever. Type 1 leads the community to new lands where they can flourish, engages in interactions (commerce or battle) as directed via the Higher Being. Etcetera.

Type 2 understands "the Power" that the Type 1 has over the community, although you would never be able to get the genuinely benevolent Type 1 to cop to that in any way shape or form.

Type 2 says to himself: I need to get me some of that, what that Type 1 has. Power. I want people to listen to me, to take my command.

Time passes. The community is used to guiding their actions and thoughts by the Will of the Higher Being, as brought to you by the genuine goodness of Type 1 person.

Suddenly Type 1 dies. Type 2 seizes his chance, goes & hangs out in the desert for awhile, and comes back to the community, "newly-enlightened" and self-annoints as the new mouthpiece for the Higher Being.

Type 2 understands how easily the community can be guided, and so begins to guide in a manner that serves his own personal gain, while perpetuating the Higher focus of the community conscience.

"That community over there won't interact the way we want to. They don't believe in our Higher Being. We must fight them to show them the errors of their ways. Oh, by the way, grab their women and their cattle, and any fine wealth you see lying around. Their ruler's throne is bigger than mine, might as well pick that up also."

This is hubris, which is a facet of power corruption. This is where fear, guilt and condemnation enter into spirituality. This is how religion is so easily corrupted by personal agenda.

This is like getting on the bus, and wanting to be the bus driver.

This is how religion can equal power.

I'll hoof it. See you there.

1. "The bible has nearly 8000 predictions of future events that are verified true (J. Barton Payne, Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy, Barker House books, Grand Rapids MI to name one book on the subject). You will find that scriptures aren't just a bunch of mumbo jumbo but have historically accurate information and thousands of verified prophetic recordings. No other religions claim prophecy and back it up with historical facts."

Andrew, the first thing I would like to point out is that you believe that J. Barton Payne’s book to be true. He is an evangelical Calvinist minister. This has a lot to do with how he views the biblical text hermeneutically speaking. Of course he’s going to arrive at that form of interpretation. The biblical text is often seen by evangelical Christians as a teleological document, a narrative heading toward a consummate event. That event, obviously is seen is Jesus. Unfortunately, having this sort of hermeneutical lense on keeps people from seeing the text as anything other than a prediction, a sign pointing toward something.

Interestingly enough, there are many Jews and Christians that would fundamentally disagree with you and Payne, concerning the bible as a book full of “fulfilledâ€

[quote="abcgroupdocumentation"]Your understanding of an imperative seems to imply a basic biological function or need within human animals to “worship.â€

i wondered about this too, whoever's assertion this actually is. but i think it's pretty clear that it's the case. consider teenagers. think about teenagers for just a moment. somebody like britney spears, she is probably worshipped by loads of kids. back in the day it was the beatles. rock stars are totally icons of worship. worshipping comes in all shapes and sizes. have you ever been so in love with a woman that you wanted to buy her flowers, just to show her how much you love her? have you ever wanted to play the same kinda drums as whoever, or play the same kinda guitar as whoever, or have a cool haircut or dress similar to whoever? i would say that's all tied into that same human quality, the "worship" quality or however it gets quantified. and it surely doesn't apply to everyone, and surely applies more to some folks than to others. kinda like the biological imperative to reproduce. for some folks it's huge, for others nonexistent. i think it's probably a similar situation with the whole worship thing. so maybe whatever guy wrote that book was onto something. as far as measuring the neural patterns or whatever one would have to do to "prove" it, that's well beyond the scope of what any of us are gonna be able to do. anybody here a professional brain scanner?

i'm still inclined to think that a fundamental distinction should be made between admiration (or rock stars) and worship (of a diety). or better yet, metaphysical worship of deities and that of rock stars and other human persons. at the end of the day, i still think they're different things and they manifest themselves differently.

technically speaking, they should manifest themselves differently. getting my haircut like the beatles in no way effects my moral or ethical conduct the way worshipping god is supposed to in the judeo-christian sense. i think the ramifications or each are different and are supposed to be. does that make sense?

regardless, andrew...your point is taken. i stand down. i didn't realize you were simply brining the issue up. i thought you held those convictions.

abcgroupdocumentation wrote:technically speaking, they should manifest themselves differently. getting my haircut like the beatles in no way effects my moral or ethical conduct the way worshipping god is supposed to in the judeo-christian sense. i think the ramifications or each are different and are supposed to be. does that make sense?

i totally agree that they *should* manifest themselves differently. but i don't think they do, or rather, in the case of my warped sense of what teens are like, i think if anything, kids moral guidance probably comes more from rockstar idols than it does from religion or any personal concept of what God might be like, for lotsa kids. as an example, nobody woulda cared about Britney Spears being or not being a virgin if things were as i think we are agreeing they should be. nobody would care (more than for gossip sake) whether or not britney was a virgin unless they were afraid that their daughter would say "oh, britney didn't wait till marriage, well i'm not gonna wait either". michael jordan, man was that guy worshipped by folks the world over. the whole "be like mike" thing, remember that? even stupid shit like hulk hogan being all "say your prayers, take your vitamins" and that kinda stuff, i think all these examples speak to the phenomenon. granted "worship" can be taken to mean something slightly different, like, how many people set up a shrine to michael jordan and said prayers to him... probably not many at all. but i think if we're talking about a biological imperative, if it indeed does exist, i would feel safe lumping worshipping of an idol in with worshipping of God, not that i think that's how things should be, but i think it's probably how they are. i just don't think the emulation ends with hairstyles or shoe choices; i think it extends well beyond that.

El Protoolio wrote:People can believe whatever kind of voodoo crap they want, just don't push it on me and I won't push back.

If worship is hardwired how does that explain my atheism and lack of worship? Oh wait, it doesn't because it's BULLSHIT!

I concur

toomanyhelicopters wrote:...teens... kids moral guidance... etc

You're talking as if a biological imperative is only a factor when we're young & innocent. It may be a biological imperative that asserts (or continues to assert) itself at some later point in our lives, when, say, we realize that the idols we worshipped as teens aren't actually worthy of so much worship, & we start looking for something more substantial - good friends, or a healthy relationship, or great personal achievement, or a better understand of life & death, or a God or something.

If we're genetically inclined to worship, that inclination probably doesn't go away when we stop trying to be like Britney Spears. Our teen worship may just be a perversion of the instinct, which either continues to be perverted throughout our long, miserable lives, or gets turned into something healthy and satisfying.

i really don't know the answer to that, as i have no experience as part of a peer group of oldies. but you raise a good point, that biological imperatives may be lifelong in some instances. i would throw out the example of humping, which i believe to be an age-sensitive imperative. so the evolution or change of an imperative as we ourselves grow or change, that seems very logical to me. as far as how it works out for the worshipping impulse in adults, i really don't know. it's funny, now as i try and picture all the different people i've encountered in all the different churches i've been to, i come to the conclusion that there's no way i can even throw out a hypothesis on this one because my evaluation of any/all of these people will be undeniably colored by my bias/perspective at the time i was around them. and as much as i love to throw out hypotheses about why people are doing what they're doing (like psych 101 type stuff) in this case i just don't even feel like i can presume to go there. i wonder how the scienticious study measured this biological imperative?