Antero wrote:To conceive of the discussion as a linear scale that can be "balanced" by the addition of equal numbers of extremes is already an entirely erroneous conception of the issue at hand. In reality, a data set that includes nothing but extremes is the essence of unbalanced, no matter how equal their numbers.

If I want to 'balance' the image of the Palestinian conflict offered by the US media, I think it is perfectly reasonable to report on extremist Zionist hate speech. Are you saying that the Eliyahu remarks are out of bounds for use in painting a more accurate picture of the region? If I am confronted by a scale that tilts heavily to the pro-Israeli side, what good will I do by adding equal portions of negative news to both sides of the scale? That won't change the weight distribution that is causing the scale to tilt. The US media is deficient in both Pro-Palestinian news and anti-Israeli news, so adding either helps.

This is what makes eliya's first challenge to me so silly.

First this:

eliya wrote:Hi Bob, you know, I always see you write about the war between Israel and the Palestinians. I always get the idea that you guys just hate israelis, and that we're really bad guys.

( I don't even know who 'guys' refers to- I speak for myself, no organization ).

And then this:

eliya wrote:I see you quoting about houses in Gaza being demolished for no reason, I don't see you talking about houses in Sderot being demolished by kasam missiles.

It's really funny that these pleas for objectivity only come after Zionists words or actions are criticized. You never hear 'hey, keep it balanced' until the endless drumbeat against the Palestinians is interrupted.
The attitude shown by eliya boils down to 'you are not entitled to criticize Israel unless you accompany every criticism of Israel with a corresponding criticism of the Arabs.' If the media already played by the inverse of that rule, I wouldn't have to say anything. The situation would be fixed.

Pollack wrote:

'Cattle' is a popular description for non-Jews

This is bullshit. If you are refering to the term "Goyim," it simply means nation, as in other nations besides the nation of Israel.

Are you saying that Goyim is not a derogatory term for non- Jews?

The American Heritage Dictionary refers to goy as a slur.

n. pl. goy·im (goim) or goys Offensive
Used as a disparaging term for one who is not a Jew.
[Yiddish, from Hebrew gôy, Jew ignorant of the Jewish religion, non-Jew; see gwy in Semitic roots.

The Talmud states in various passages that only Jews are truly sons of Adam, and that non-Jews are less human, more akin to beasts.

Goy or Goyim (plural) can be derogatory or not, depending on the intent of the speaker. The same can be said for words like Jew, Muslim, gay or Mexican. If you want to offend with it, you can. Otherwise it is just descriptive.

I don't watch foreign news, but I've watched before. the reports weren't balanced. Your Reports(Bob) aren't balanced, in my opinion.
No one I know heard what Mordechai Eliyahu said, including left winged people who read haaertz. My parents who are both religious and zionists don't think that arabs are less than zero, they think that they're equal to us.
I've asked many people here in the company I work in as if they're zionists. most of them said that yes, or partly zionists. none of them said that muslism are less than a zero, they all said that they're equal to jews/christians/all human beings.
my grandparents were zionists. they came to Israel to build their houses and new lives here, none of them killed a muslim, none of them thought that muslims are less than a zero or just a little more than a zero. the contrary, they worked with muslims, back in lybia and morroco and here in Israel. My father worked with muslims, etc' etc'.
Mordechai eliyahu is the rabbi of maximum 90,000 people. Even less. He's not going to do anything with what he said, nor his followers.
Yes, he's an idiot, yes, I think that generally religions suck. No, Mordechi eliyahu isn't a prominent jewish.
btw, Im not going to personal lines with you, no need to tell me that im not so smart. you aren't even living here, you just assume what's going on here. dude, your clueless. come over for a year or two, you'll learn more about what's going on and not make up some conspiracies about religion and it's connection to government.

clocker bob wrote:

sunlore wrote: Eliya's point, that there really are two sides to this whole affair, is fundamentally sound.

That really wasn't the crux of my argument with eliya. I think eliya is dishonestly minimizing the level of influence of Eliyahu inside Israel and dishonestly characterizing Zionists as respectful of non-Jews.

I addressed this (well, the first part, to be sure).

If I want to 'balance' the image of the Palestinian conflict offered by the US media, I think it is perfectly reasonable to report on extremist Zionist hate speech.

Which is exactly what the JP did.

Bob, we are talking about a dude who believes (and has stated publicly) that the Holocaust was a form of divine punishment, a result of the German jews' all too gentile conduct prior to the war. This is a hateful and bloodthirsty little prick who clearly views each and everyone out of his personal belief system as inferior.

So beyond the observation that there are certain racist/religious fruitcakes with minor influence with regard to Israeli politics (quite the revelation right there) I don't really see a whole lot of merit in this discussion.

Also, your arrogance and incessantly condescending tone are "funny" at best in the light of your obviously cartoon-like grasp of political affairs, which makes me wonder whether you even own a passport.

sunlore wrote:

If I want to 'balance' the image of the Palestinian conflict offered by the US media, I think it is perfectly reasonable to report on extremist Zionist hate speech.

Which is exactly what the JP did.

I swear, nobody reads my posts. Read the title of my first post and combine it with the first sentence. Do you see what I am complaining about?
"If a prominent Muslim said these words about Jews, it would be covered to the point of saturation by the US media." Did you see the whole satirical paragraph I wrote about the US politicians who will NOT denounce these comments? The entire theme of the thread has escaped you, probably on purpose, because you're programmed to pretend that US media bias is a non-factor in the continuing failures of our Middle East policy. Americans are denied the information they need to see the conflict from both sides. Well, maybe not denied, but it rarely appears anywhere that they customarily get their news.

sunlore wrote:

Also, your arrogance and incessantly condescending tone are "funny" at best in the light of your obviously cartoon-like grasp of political affairs, which makes me wonder whether you even own a passport.

Yeah, you're a genius, sunlore, and I'm just a dumb American. How the hell can I possibly know what I need to know about the Middle East when the US media puts a blockade around negative coverage of Israel?? Excellent, excellent point. You are so totally right.

This thread was perfect for dragging all the knee jerk apologists for Israel out into the open. Good job, sunlore, eliya, antero. Tough tough break for you that an accurate picture of the psycho mindset of many many Zionists is staring at you from the front page of an american web site. Crank up the force field.

I love watching bitter cranks like you stomp your feet over shit like this.

The US media is ignoring this, just like the US media ignored the release of the Meron memo. US politicians will ignore this. Any of you feel like telling me that's a good thing?

I'm not going to join this argument, but I think this thread went off the rails after the first post.

Bob, I suppose you wanted a good argument judging by your bold statements.

I agree with you that you've obviously got a Jewish bias in the US media. Hardly surprising. Also, with the history of the media and your government in the last few years, it doesn't surprise me that there continues to be so much hatred towards Islam. The US news in my opinion is very poor.

But, there's no point in having a shouting match with Sunlore and Eliya.

Rodabod wrote:But, there's no point in having a shouting match with Sunlore and Eliya.

ding! ding! ding!

clocker bob wrote:

sunlore wrote:

If I want to 'balance' the image of the Palestinian conflict offered by the US media, I think it is perfectly reasonable to report on extremist Zionist hate speech.

Which is exactly what the JP did.

I swear, nobody reads my posts. Read the title of my first post and combine it with the first sentence. Do you see what I am complaining about?

Yes, and we are in full agreement.

However, if and when Ha'aretz or the Jerusalem Post decide to publish hatespeech such as the one at hand, that in itself doesn't make it "mainstream zionism" or "mainstream judaism" or whatever you called it. Which was my only point. They're just reporting.

Anyway, at this point I don't have a whole lot more to add to this thread other than to say that I don't think you are dumb, Bob, because you're obviously not. I think netto we agree on more things then we disagree on, I however usually find myself typing when the latter is the case.

Good.

I will now dance the Sirtaki.

kerble wrote:

Rodabod wrote:But, there's no point in having a shouting match with Sunlore and Eliya.

ding! ding! ding!

Okay, so everyone skipped right past these kind words from sunlore that came first, and moved right on to reprimanding me?

sunlore wrote:Also, your arrogance and incessantly condescending tone are "funny" at best in the light of your obviously cartoon-like grasp of political affairs, which makes me wonder whether you even own a passport.