Adam CR wrote:

Isabelle Gall wrote:You realise that Kim and Thurston actually think that they are subversive

This statement brings ruination to your post.

1. How do you know this?

The example I postulated is in the remainder of the sentence you just quoted. The rest of my post was based around what it could mean for Thurston to compile a mixtape of his faves for Starbucks. So you disagree, you think that Kim and Thurston are actually subversive?

Adam CR wrote:2. Even if you're correct, who cares?

Someone other than yourself? Why bother typing anything on this board at all if this is the case Adam CR, about your kids or Radio 4 or expensive cooking knives? Who cares?

Adam CR wrote:3. What does it matter if they think they're subversive (whatever that means) when they aren't?

I felt passionately enough to write the original post as I feel that SY have long since held that they are, as a living art project incorporating other artists and record labels, culturally engineering for the good of 'the kids', a point raised by the original Pitchfork excerpt which instigated this thread. I feel that I successfully contributed in adding to the thread with the post.

Adam CR wrote:Let's just agree that SY ponk (as my daughter would say), and leave it at that.

Speak for yourself.

I had some Chock Full O Nuts joe this morning and put on some Jackonuts. I think I'll write a letter to the editor and complain about arts funding or whatever is holding up my paperwork allowing me to adopt a Chinese orphan. Cheers.

Isabelle Gall wrote:
The example I postulated is in the remainder of the sentence you just quoted.

You mean hanging with A and then hanging with B? For the sake of 'subversion'?

Is it not more likely that they hang with A and then B because they just like doing it? I mean I guess it's possible that they live their lives as if everybody is watching, but that doesn't seem particularly likely. Does it?

So you disagree, you think that Kim and Thurston are actually subversive?

I don't really understand how 'subversion' is something that any rock star could achieve in these post punk times.

Someone other than yourself? Why bother typing anything on this board at all if this is the case Adam CR, about your kids or Radio 4 or expensive cooking knives? Who cares?

That wasn't really what I meant, although your point is valid, and taken as intended (I assume).

What I meant was 'does it really matter if they are subversive nor not given that their cultural context is not one that readily allows for meaningful subversion?'.

I appreciate that 'who cares?' wasn't a particularly helpful way to phrase that question.

Adam CR wrote:I felt passionately enough to write the original post as I feel that SY have long since held that they are, as a living art project incorporating other artists and record labels, culturally engineering for the good of 'the kids', a point raised by the original Pitchfork excerpt which instigated this thread. I feel that I successfully contributed in adding to the thread with the post.

I didn't intend my post to be taken as some sort unhinged attack on your contribution to the thread, and apologise if that's how it appeared. I think my (intended) questions relating to your post are valid, but if you don't then fine, obviously.

Sorry.

Isabelle Gall wrote:You realise that Kim and Thurston actually think that they are subversive

At one point they were, extremely so. They basically presented Glenn Branca music to the masses and people actually bought it.
As with any successful artist, they become less relevant as more and more people accept what they do. In SY's case, they broke new ground a few times, but it's hard to *keep* breaking new ground. I've broken NO new ground in my life that I know of, even once. How about you?

This is what you're dreaming of isn't it Thurston? Or would you use the more 'accessible' Ecstatic Peace artists on your mixtape....you know, the acts which are released through Universal?

Thurston's turned me on to a lot of good music. He sure can drop some names, and that can be annoying, but he likes good stuff, regardless of the label. I checked out the Monks many years ago because his description of them sounded great.

I assume the name dropping is a carryover from the days when underground bands took better care of each other. Name checking Mike Watt or Richard Pettibon probably helped the whole underground cause.
e.g - The kids think "I like SY, and they keep talking about this 'Mike Watt' guy and some bands called fIREHOSE and The Minutemen, maybe I should check them out."
I wish more bands did this these days.

He's been pretty good about bringing smaller bands along for the ride too. Whether it was getting bands signed to DGC (good or bad, depending on your opinion), championing Polvo, or mentioning people like Rys Chatham in interviews, which undoubtedly sent more than a few kids out in search of those records, I think SY has been really good at staying grounded for a band that has been told over and over again for 25 years that they are one of the most important bands ever.
Obviously that will go to your head a little, but they seem to have handled it pretty well.

Once again I say, these guys are NOT the "enemy."
Never have been and I doubt they ever will be.

-A

El Protoolio wrote:Sonic Youth conjures nostalgia in me. They were one of my original gateway bands into independent music.

Have they pleased me much in the last 20 years? Not outside of their live performances.

Am I going to see them perform one of my favorite albums in July even if it means I am supporting Bitchfork? Yes.

Do they tell you how to live your life and how to earn a living? No.

Do they owe you or me or anyone besides themselves anything? No.

Ove the last year or so, I've noticed that El Protoolio has been the voice of good reason and conscience on the PRF. From now on I'm just going to skim through threads until I get to his excellent posts, which are inevitably right on the button.

Salut El Protoolio! You are dignified. Salut!

tommydski wrote:Salut El Protoolio! You are dignified. Salut!

I agree. Nice work.
There are far less "punk" things happening around me every day to waste any time thinking Sonic Youth is the problem.
Don't like the music or the coffee? Vote with your dollar.

I still insist that there are better things to direct your ire towards than SY or Starbucks.

-A

tommydski wrote:

El Protoolio wrote:Sonic Youth conjures nostalgia in me. They were one of my original gateway bands into independent music.

Have they pleased me much in the last 20 years? Not outside of their live performances.

Am I going to see them perform one of my favorite albums in July even if it means I am supporting Bitchfork? Yes.

Do they tell you how to live your life and how to earn a living? No.

Do they owe you or me or anyone besides themselves anything? No.

Ove the last year or so, I've noticed that El Protoolio has been the voice of good reason and conscience on the PRF. From now on I'm just going to skim through threads until I get to his excellent posts, which are inevitably right on the button.

Salut El Protoolio! You are dignified. Salut!

Thanks!

Salut tommydski! Salut alex maiolo!

"Starbucks is the new record store, right?"

--Thurston Moore

That quote is going in my sig, right after I say a few things.

I'm sick of music fans whining about this whole "selling out" thing. If a band changes their music, dumbing it down or whatever in the interest of making money, then yeah. That sucks and I won't listen to that kind of garbage. Some bands will do one or two "commercially acceptable" records, just to make some money and gain some leverage with a major label or whatever, then return to their roots. That's OK too, as long as the music is still good. One or two bad albums still doesn't in any way diminish their previous material, if it had real merit in the first place.

It's not a decision to be made lightly. A band that does choose to compromise their style runs high risks of alienating a large portion of their original core fan base. In those cases it's often seen as a slap in the face by those fans, but you have to remember, the band doesn't really owe you anything. They're just playing music. If you like it, great. If you don't, then whatever. Go listen to something else. That's your choice. It's not like your girlfriend went and fucked your best friend or something. It's just music. It's the art world and that's the way it is. There's no accounting for taste, as the old saying goes.

But I don't see Sonic Youth as one of those bands. From the start, they took an extremely artistic, individualistic approach to rock music, did some excellent stuff, and became very influential. IMO, they sacrificed 2 albums for the sake of commercial success.

I'm not going to disrespect Sonic Youth (or any decent band, for that matter) for expecting some financial returns on their credibility and the "serious reputation" that they've been building over the past 25 odd years. They built that reputation by making interesting music, sticking to their ideals for the most part, working their asses off, playing all over the world to spread their music and by being smart and making the right decisions. They made a bunch of great records. Evol, Sister, Daydream Nation, all the side projects and all the great stuff they've promoted via their label and everything... A record in Starbucks is supposed to nullify all that?

It's pretty harsh to accuse anyone who works in any form of business or marketing of "sleeping with the enemy" and just say "fuck 'em". Like I'm supposed to work in guitar stores and coffee shops for $10 bucks an hour for the rest of my life, with no medical benefits, retirement or anything, just so some pretentious posers won't call me a "sellout"? Fuck me?!? Fuck you.

People have families to raise, they have medical bills, etc. You can't live your entire life like you're 20 years old, unless you want to end up a bum on the street. At some point you're going have to man-up and start prioritizing. Think about where you'd be if your parents had that attitude when they were raising you. If they did have that attitude (wasting their lives in low-paying jobs, making their children suffer through poverty just so they could continue to appear "hip") then I apologize, and I'm sure you appreciate the value of money and the drive to make something of yourself.

Besides, no matter how radical, idealistic, and dangerously avant-garde you think your rock band may be, if you suddenly started getting offers from all comers to publish and release your music, would you turn them all down? Why do art in the first place? Isn't whole point to get it out there so people can enjoy and be influenced by it?

Adam CR wrote:

Isabelle Gall wrote:

Someone other than yourself? Why bother typing anything on this board at all if this is the case Adam CR, about your kids or Radio 4 or expensive cooking knives? Who cares?

That wasn't really what I meant, although your point is valid, and taken as intended (I assume).

What I meant was 'does it really matter if they are subversive nor not given that their cultural context is not one that readily allows for meaningful subversion?'.

I appreciate that 'who cares?' wasn't a particularly helpful way to phrase that question.

I KILL YOU!

No, not really. Sorry Adam, I can't read. I know what you mean now.

Adam CR wrote:Is it not more likely that they hang with A and then B because they just like doing it? I mean I guess it's possible that they live their lives as if everybody is watching, but that doesn't seem particularly likely. Does it?

I don't doubt that they enjoy it for a minute...but to run with the analogy i'd say that SY, if they claimed to be 'just a band', would be akin to a Hiltonesque tabloid skank complaining about press intrusion when they are entirely complicit in their attention, and in fact covet it.

Even if you never listen to or buy SY records they are still associated with and referenced by so much, always this big, yawning O of nothing, emptying out any real excitement or meaning.

unarmedman wrote:So what can bands do? What are non-douche money makers, so startup bands and bands like Sonic Youth?

Normal shit like having a job, playing gigs and selling records. Normal shit that doesn't involve throwing your lot in with a bunch of douchebags you probably hate anyway.