I had a look at that Pitchfork item on SY and Starbucks and I'm baffled. If it's a joke, it's not very funny or taken far enough to be funny. If it's true, which I'm tempted to think it is, who but the most insane diehard Sonic Youth obsessives would be interested in this?

Are they referring to the Michelle Williams who was on Dawson's Creek and went on to have a decent film acting career? She's cool, I guess.

My $.02 on SY is that since Dirty their records have been more or less interchangeable, though I think they sound more focused since O'Rourke joined. I've heard most of the newer records but don't own any. Still a good live band.

For coffee shops in Portland, Maine Starbucks was better than the popular Breaking New Grounds, but couldn't touch the greatness that is Coffee By Design. Starbucks can be better than a local place.

I think that about covers it.

gcbv wrote:

Flaneur wrote:

gcbv wrote:There is NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING, inherently positive about a large scale corporate entity moving into thousands, I repeat THOUSANDS, of neighborhoods across the U.S., with the oddly interesting attributes of a virus, whose intent is to "conquer" (their language) and put other smaller, locally owned coffee businesses out on their ass.

Other than health insurance and stock options for both full-time and part-time employees, and, compared to similar work available in the neighborhood, the lack of a deep fryer.

And also a system that keeps employees from having just enough hours for those benefits, that is part of the management plan. Just like Wal-Mart.

OK, this is one of the many places where you are just flat out incorrect.

First of all, PART TIME employees get Health Ins at Starbucks. There is no law requiring this, they do it out of choice because they believe that well provided for employees might appreciate it.
Wal Mart, like most companies, only gives it to full timers. What Wal Mart figured out is that they can work people 29.5 hours a week to avoid giving it to them, and we, as taxpayers, pick it up through Medicaid.
See how this is different, Che'?

Now that you've "fuck you'ed" me, I feel I need to address two other things you said:

The study was done by independent coffee roasters who were scared shitless of the Starbucks juggernaut. MY old employer was part of it and we were as mom n' pop as it gets.
I know why you're saying what you're saying and I know that insideous forces are usually behind these things. My dad is a sociologist - I know how polls and surveys work.

How this is different from Wal Mart is that there are only so many boxes of detergent you can sell, but there are always new addicts. Maxwell House and Folgers were the losers when a culture of people who demaded better coffee emerged. More people started looking for good coffee, and the rising tide lifted all boats. Surprised everyone, including us. We watched our business go up and then opened a second shop because good coffee wasn't just for hipsters and epicurians anymore. The tennis players and grandmas started coming in.

So I have stepped up, ace. I sought out the facts and didn't just swallow some bullshit based on how *most* companies work and destroy communities. I don't just accept that all big companies have the same nasty practices, I look for the data.

Hate them for hooking people on $3 cups of coffee - cups that are also sold by locally owned operations - but don't hate them for shutting down coffee shops because the INDEPENDENT data disproves that.

-A

gcbv wrote:I don't disagree with this. It is exactly why it is so heartwrenchingly fucked up to me. I simply have an inherent distrust of monopolies, because regardless of how well they treat their people in some umbrella sense, the owner of starbucks doesnt know the name of the guy who works at the Starbucks in Herald Square (well, shit one of the THREE starbucks in herald square in NYC).

And also, it's just greed. Expansion and market cornering are just greed. They could have a wonderful living making money from one or two really good stores in the Northwest. They could have enough money to buy a house, raise a kid, pay all the bills and go on a nice vacation every year. Instead, it's a fucking emblem that saturates the cities, that just keeps going.

Again, fuck that.

Starbuck's is very very huge and very very popular, but let's be fair. It's nowhere near a "monopoly". They do not command or control nearly all the resources in their industry the way other companies do, like Microsoft for instance, or Wal-Mart.

I've just realised that in the past I have used money I have received from large multinational corporations to buy Shellac records. I am sorry to everyone. I feel like I have let you all down. I know I should have earned my money giving handjobs down at the docks.

Expect my imminent resignation and suicide.

tommydski wrote:I've worked for quite a few big companies because I am partial to food and shelter. These were not good companies and I knew it at the time. However, I really do like food and shelter. I work for an oil company now and this allows me to afford musical instruments and equipment.

This is an exaggeration of a position nobody holds, and the point you're trying to make, that it is impossible to be ethical in life, is ridiculous.

If this somehow means the music I will make with these instruments is artistically compromised then I guess you can go ahead and fire me from Punk. These rules within rules are confusing and I don't even know the guy who wrote them in the first place.

Nobody made rules like that. You invented them so you could suggest they are silly, that we think like that, and by extension that the discussion about ethical behavior in ones life's work is also silly. Fuck that, it's childish Rush Limbaugh/Drudge/Ann Coulter nonsense.

Shame on you.

tommydski wrote:I've just realised that in the past I have used money I have received from large multinational corporations to buy Shellac records. I am sorry to everyone. I feel like I have let you all down. I know I should have earned my money giving handjobs down at the docks.

Expect my imminent resignation and suicide.

Quit talking like a retard.

eephour wrote:Anyone else think Thurston was just being scarcastic?

Yes.

yesterday sleepkid wrote:
This is either Thurston Moore taking a big dump on Pitchfork, or Pitchfork taking a big dump on anyone who reads their crap.

Thurston is a notorious compulsive bullshitter. I remember seeing him stand out front of a venue one time telling a bunch of kids that the show had to be canceled because Lee had broken his wrist. As I had watched them just finish soundcheck about 15 minutes prior to that, I knew it was just a jest, but he kept it up - straight face and everything, telling the kids where they could get a refund etc. Totally selling them on the joke until the last minute where he confessed he was just having a laugh.

I remember an interview with some magazine where he told them he'd studied guitar at the Berkley College of Music, and they printed it as fact.

The Pitchfork interview that everyone has linked to is the only source for this information, and it says it will be continued after the weekend (probably today) - where, it is my guess, the rest of the interview will just reveal that it's a joke between Pitchfork and Thurston or one playing a prank on the other. Meanwhile, they've probably gotten their kicks surfing other forums watching the debates about this.

If I'm wrong, then I subscribe to the feeling in my earlier post.

steve wrote:

tommydski wrote:I've just realised that in the past I have used money I have received from large multinational corporations to buy Shellac records. I am sorry to everyone. I feel like I have let you all down. I know I should have earned my money giving handjobs down at the docks.

Quit talking like a retard.

The handjob part was funny.

I was being droll for the sake of humour. The tone of the thread has become ridiculous so I was being ridiculous. I apologise.

It's a confusing subject and I overstepped my limited knowledge of it.

gcbv wrote:

steve wrote:

losthighway wrote:1. Sonic Youth's last three albums are better then any album you have ever made.

Care to wager on that? Let's put together a panel of listeners and I'll take my chances. How's $1000 even money sound?

Seriously, I'm not a betting man, and I would take this wager and risk my life savings on this bet, it's so ridiculously obvious.

So you're taking Steve up on the wager? I volunteer to sit on the panel then. I can guarantee my impartiality as I have not heard the last three Sonic Youth albums, and I also do not own a Travis Bean. So I would be able to objectively judge whether any of the last three Sonic Youth albums are better than any album Steve has ever made.

My guess is that you would lose this wager, but I promise to approach it with a totally open mind. Now we just need two or four more impartial panel members, and we're in business.