NerblyBear wrote:Sonic Youth wouldn't make such a crass move. Thurston is the guy who puts out albums by Sunburned Hand of the Man on his tiny little label, Ecstatic Peace, for chrissakes.

...which is owned by Universal.

you know:

madlee wrote:there's no way around it, unless you decide to become cardew, which after years of thinking was the way, I've come to conclusion that it's akin to taking your ball and going home.

Nonsense. Everyone picks his way through the forest, and there are some ways that are uglier and more destructive than others. It is also totally normal to notice how others are making their way, and form an opinion on it. Totally normal.

This thread has seemingly divided into two different discussions. Discussion

(a) Is SY crap for possibly selling music at Starbucks?

and conversation

(b) is Starbucks an evil corporate entity and is their coffee really any good?

I couldn't give a fuck about conversation (b) really as I don't drink coffee and therefore never go into a Starbucks.

But on topic (a) apart from the fact that SY may or may not be putting out an album with Starbucks, there's something else that I want to touch on, and really should anyone being putting out music with Starbucks?

This is kind of a difficult thing to express, but for some reason which I can't place my finger on exactly, I feel it's intrinsically wrong. Against the very spirit of music in some way. I'm still working with this idea, so forgive me if some of my statements seem either vague or extreme.

The idea of this is that you're purchasing the music as an after thought. You're not going to Starbucks for music. You're going there for coffee, and they just happen to be pushing some CDs there as well and you go "oh, how nice" and pick one up. In some way, I think this signals that you're not a real music lover. You're like one of those people who simply subscribed to the K-tel or BMG CD of the month club and simply listened to what you were given.

The idea that any musician would court that kind of fan (which really just represents a monetary unit at this point) is revolting. It goes against the original purpose of making music. It says "I no longer care about my music or who my fan base is, as long as I am making a profit."

People who truly love music don't go to Starbucks to buy a Coltrane compilation as an afterthought, they go to record stores or wherever to buy all their Coltrane albums, looking for specific songs or records that they love.

People who buy their CDs at Starbucks are people who are too lazy to think for themselves. Starbuck Drones. And while Starbucks, or any place that sells goods is a possible financially viable outlet for selling your product, you as a musician really need to be thinking about what your goals are if you're selling a CD there.

Your music is an accessory to coffee, it's product placement is next to keychains, some pens, freeze dried coffee from other countries, and little sterling silver hand grinders. Your music is not vital or important in this shop. It is not the main product. You are background noise.

If you are happy with that, then you should quit being a musician.

Whether or not it's a hoax, he's not talking about having actors cover SY songs. He's talking about a compilation along the lines of this compilation of other artists' favorite Joni Mitchell songs.

So, Michelle Williams, sure, she could be a fan. Great actress, either way.

sleepkid wrote: I don't drink coffee and therefore never go into a Starbucks.

i only go there to buy records.

I use the toilets in Starbucks but I've never bought a coffee there.

I rate their toilets 7/10.

sleepkid wrote:The idea of this is that you're purchasing the music as an after thought. You're not going to Starbucks for music. You're going there for coffee, and they just happen to be pushing some CDs there as well and you go "oh, how nice" and pick one up. In some way, I think this signals that you're not a real music lover. You're like one of those people who simply subscribed to the K-tel or BMG CD of the month club and simply listened to what you were given.

While i don't necessarily disagree with your views here (overall i've treated the news of Starbucks forming a label and selling records as a laughable joke more than anything), it should be noted that when records were first produced, they were sold in furniture stores, were they not? The record players were sold there, so it followed suit that the records would be sold where you would buy the playing device. If you look at it that way, selling records in a coffee shop isn't all that weird.

On the other hand, one could argue that the industry has obviously changed since those days (as in, now there is an industry to discuss), so the comparision may be moot.

On the other other hand, i don't think anyone would deny that the industry is changing yet again in this, the mp3 age, and companies both independent and multinational are trying to figure out where it's gonna lead. Starbucks starting a record label, to me, is just one corporation's attempt to carve out a niche in a changing industry where CD sales are dropping, which apparently leads them to conclude that fewer people are making special trips to CD stores to buy music. So they're trying to see if people will still buy music if it's right next to something they're still going out of their way to purchase.

All that said, i still laugh my ass off at the idea of anyone buying music at Starbucks, although i wouldn't begrudge a local band selling their CDs at Fuel or Brewed Awakenings.

to lighten the mood a bit let me tell a starbucks related story I have...
I know this girl, very attractive, french, ample bosom...she's on the internet constantly, all about the computers and the myspace and whatnot. One day we are sitting around at my old place and she's looking at craigslist, she decides to place a very lascivious personal ad and see how many guys reply. We snap a quick picture of her cleavage, stick it on the end there and send it.
Long story short she has 100's of replies in no time.
We go through a big chuck of them and she asks each guy to meet her at 7 o'clock at the Starbucks on Clark and Belmont...oh, and wear a red shirt so I know who you are. Then we start staggering them, 10 more at 7:10, 10 more at 7:15 and so on.
We go and sit across the street by punkin donuts and sit and wait.
You've never seen anything like this, I promise. There had to be 75 dudes milling about inside and on that corner in red shirts just pacing around like idiots. It didn't stop for hours, she had some of their cell numbers and she'd start calling them and saying 'I'm running late I'll be there in 5 minutes'
one dude was like 'hey, I was the only guy who is spossed to meet you here right?' 'oh yeah of course' 'well there's a whole lot of guys here in red shirts, freaked me out for a second but ok I'll see you in 5'

that was a fine way to spend a summer evening, lemmie tell ya.

steve wrote:

madlee wrote:there's no way around it, unless you decide to become cardew, which after years of thinking was the way, I've come to conclusion that it's akin to taking your ball and going home.

Nonsense. Everyone picks his way through the forest, and there are some ways that are uglier and more destructive than others. It is also totally normal to notice how others are making their way, and form an opinion on it. Totally normal.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread anymore, but while SY has made some really ugly choices over the years, are they actually destructive in some way? I don't think you're implying that they are indeed somehow destructive (I assume you were strictly talking about some figurative forest), but over the years, the "ugly" choices of some of your friends have really upset you...I can sympathize...certain choices that people make that I would consider to be unethical (musical and otherwise) definitely offend me and I occasionally take it kinda hard. Can an artistically valid band like Sonic Youth's alignment with a major label be harmful or destructive in some way for other people/other bands...or only to themselves? (of course, in this rare case, a major certainly seemed to work for them).

Additionally, when you say "opinion," above...could that word be replaced by "judgment?" Too often, I think I make judgments as opposed to having opinions...or is having an opinion the same thing as drawing a line in the sand/making a judgment call? I see the world in shades of gray, but can there be valid blacks and whites as well?

The SY match/mismatch nonwithstanding, what Starbucks is doing -- as Sleepkid describes it, selling music to people who will buy CDs en route to buying what the stuff they enter the store for -- is a variation on those Putumayo CDs you find in bookstores, trinket/soap/card stores, independent coffeehouses, etc., and a variation on Quimby's having a few CDs up by the register. As long as it's a fit with the rest of the merchandise, it's a good way to introduce people to a particular band.