Reader douche wrote:It's hard to say what counts as "selling out" these days...

Well, no. It's never hard, unless you're specifically looking for a reason to sell out in a way you can pass off as not selling out.

It's not hard at all, and if it's hard for the Reader douche who is supposed to cover the music scene, then he's unqualified for the job.

Had a horrible nightmare...couldn't sleep.

Drank some lemonade.

Didn't help.

Checked the band MySpace thingy to see how many new "friends" I had...found a drunken fucking note from Mark Prindle on this new "bulletin board" feature that showcases silly bullshit from your online "buddies".

It was about how much Prindle loved Paul McCartney. It was difficult to know what the hell he actually meant by anything in this McCartney ramble...but I inevitably visited his site, and I was struck by this old 1994 interview (conducted when neophyte Prindle was probably my age) when I felt compelled to go rifling through his site:

Mark Prindle wrote:Guzzard?

David Wm. Sims wrote:Guzzard! Which I suppose isn't a one-syllable word. I liked them a lot! I thought they were really fun.

Mark E. Prindle wrote:Are you on the Information Superhighway?

David "Wm." Sims wrote:No, the brushes that I've had with the Internet - it just seemed like a bunch of fucking smartass brats who don't know anything about anything.

Mark E. Mark wrote:Yeah! That's it actually! (present company included!)

Davey Sims wrote:People that think that because they have a computer, they're intelligent. I mean, I'm sorry. I'm just not buying it. Especially given what I read, the crap these people post.

Prindle wrote:Oh. You've seen the Indie Rock lists and stuff?

Sims wrote:Right. Like "Indie Rock." What does that mean?

Prindle wrote:I don't know. Not a whole lot these days. But it used to mean Dinosaur Jr.!

SimFarm wrote:Well yeah! I think I sort of take exception to the whole "indie vs. major label" debate. It's just that I know so many people that got screwed over by one indie label after another and never did get treated fairly `til they went to a major label. Sonic Youth comes to mind. They just got reamed by Homestead, then SST, then Blast First and then never did get treated fairly `til they signed to Geffen.

El Prindle wrote:At which point they were called "sell-outs."

Rapeman wrote:Right. See, when I think of selling out, I think of somebody who sort of, in order to make the money, makes some sort of compromise. I mean, you look at the Melvins record and Sonic Youth records. Those records you can tell are not like, there's not some label bastard looking to get `em a number one hit at the wheel there, and pushing people around and making threats and stuff. I think that that stuff still goes on a lot, but it doesn't have to be like that. And I think a lot of the people that come up through indie labels are too smart to let that happen.

Personally, I think I have a mild understanding of the pitfalls of major label "stardom," but the decisions that others make are not my own...it's difficult to judge them (but I still have my opinions). I wonder if indies still turn off bands with their poor business practices or if this is just a justification...an excuse for later (impending?) behavior.

steve wrote:

Reader douche wrote:It's hard to say what counts as "selling out" these days...

Well, no. It's never hard, unless you're specifically looking for a reason to sell out in a way you can pass off as not selling out.

It's not hard at all, and if it's hard for the Reader douche who is supposed to cover the music scene, then he's unqualified for the job.

I don't know if it is easy to determine 'selling out', take as a good example the ATP Festival in the UK. It is the logical extension of the DIY gig circuit in that it's completely about giving people who go to it something special. It's amazing, it's still amazing.
However, in order to do this the bands now play in a food hall, next to Burger King and Pizza Hut. I would never class ATP as 'selling out' but in order for them to keep that festival going in a way that works they've had to get in bed with some companies (by association) that are a little questionable and so the lines have become blurred surely?

A festival is not art, however. It is a venue for it and you're right, there is some obfuscatory overlap. But the real pitfalls of lining up with a corporation are clearer, IMO, when you're producing something creative, expressive, and personal. Those 3 qualities are nearly impossible to maintain simultaneously and perpetually when you take the chance on a corporation's values impinging on your own.

And if art isn't creative, expressive, and personal at absolute baseline, what is it?

My dad works for Tesco, stacking shelves and being a till jockey. He gets around £12,000 per year.

A friend of mine acted in two Tesco ads for tv. She got paid £14,000 for two days work.

I think my dad would swap places with her in a second.

Of course, a small label's independence from the majors is not a guarantee that its management/ownership are always going to operate fairly and above-board. I'm sure there are lots of shitty indie labels out there who end up screwing over and alienating the talent that they are supposed to be representing.

So, wait...I'm supposed to hate people for acting like idiots on MTV?

Might as well hate a fish for swimmin'.

MrFood wrote:
Jesus - I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but - Thurston Moore - you are an absolute tool.

Sure, get back to me when you've done all of the following:

* Developed a fascinating system of weird guitar tunings
* Written and performed songs on three or four immortal rock albums
* Helped to institute a thriving and creative underground music community
* Managed to release the bent brilliance that is Washing Machine on Geffen's dime
* Turned many young musicians onto obscure No Wave bands and electronic and free jazz artists via interviews and fanzine record reviews

Get back to me when you've done all of that, and then I might consider according your pronunciamentos of disdain the slightest bit of respect.

Oh, Nerb. Thurston Moore acts like a mindless idiot in that interview.

Even a guy that comes up with alternate tunings can take a dive off the deep end every once in a while.

MrFood wrote:Did you even watch the fucking video?

Didn't need to. Still have the VHS tape from when it was on the first time.

I dunno, man...I see your point, and believe me, SY are very important to me, but by this point I almost expect Thurston (and Kim, to a lesser degree) to do shit like this. The adverts and the Starbucks and whatever. It doesn't change, for me, their artistic work or goals.

Gotta wonder a bit, though, why you never see Lee and Steve doing this shit.