Earwicker wrote:
I do not think all Americans (or even all Texans) should be dismissed because of a (generally considered) morally reprehensible government policy.

There are many other reasons the general population of Texas should be dismissed, (the Bush Family and the Dallas Cowboys are as good as any) trust me...

but just to state this loud and clear, I was in no way imply implying that a whole population should be written off for acts of there govermnet, and I was in no way saying you were either...

now STF was just being a dick-bag but anyone can see that...

galanter wrote:...
The genius of the framers of the constitution wasn't that they created the perfect country and then they were done. It's that they created a *process* that would yield increasing freedom and justice over time. They *knew* USA Version 1.0 wasn't perfect. But they also knew that given a critical mass of freedom to discuss, explore, disagree, and grow each subsequent version would be an improvement over the last.

So yes the Indians were virtually wiped out by something that could only be called genocide. Women and non-land-owners were initially second class citizens. And in many states Blacks were considered subhuman property. But over time the genocide stopped, women and the poor were given the vote, and Black slaves were freed, considered equally human, and so on.

This process is not over. That means that some people are still suffering. But that also means hope and optimism for the future is not naive, it's an empirical truth. But it requires, as it always has, hard work and a degree of faith.
...

I question how many of the framers of the constitution were actually interested in such a process. Originally there was no bill of rights. Those who fought for one were no doubt more enlightened but they stopped well before universal suffrage, civil rights, and workers rights. Giving them credit for those things eventually occurring is bullshit. That "process" was driven by people risking their freedom and very lives, not a bunch of wealthy white aristocrats rotting in the ground.

There is a reason additional amendments had to be stapled to the constitution: however well intentioned select "framers" were, the document they helped create left a lot of people hanging.

galanter wrote:
But I remain an optimist. The American dream isn't just about being able to buy stuff. It's about people from all over the world living here as equals. It's about the right to be an atheist or a Muslim or Christian or whatever and still feel at home. It's about finding the humanity in ourselves and others.

I like your version of the American Dream. I hope it catches on.

I think they should just make not being an American illegal

Hairy, you are on the verge of making my point. The amendments were part of the process I just described. You think the framers didn't see that coming? I believe some of them were directly involved!

It's true they made a constitution that could adapt and change with the country. But there is nothing necessarily progressive about that. People are currently trying to use the amendment process to ban gay marriage. Prohibition made precious alcohol illegal. The process can be used to turn us backward as well, all they need is enough votes.

No doubt some of the framers had greater freedom in mind, but on the whole they were more concerned with their own rights. The document they came up with didn't really have a problem with nearly a century of human slavery, and tolerating another century of legalized oppression. I don't think women were mentioned in there at all. They didn't say anything about a forty hour work week either. These things did happen but it took a while and it could have taken much longer.

The reason we've made progress is because people fought their own government. They protested, picketed, sat in jail, were beaten, many were killed. The framers, and their constitution didn't give us any of this shit, people had to take it, by force. The constitution itself could have sat around and watched another 500 years of slavery. The framers must have also considered this possibility.

Gramsci wrote:

sparky wrote:

STF wrote:I'll take something written by someone from a country where the penalty for getting raped is being stoned to death with a grain of salt.

Get stuffed, will you? How many Pakistanis do you know? I'm half-Pakistani myself, so I guess that you'll choose only to believe half of what I'm writing, O civilised one. Bigot.

I think you need to ask yourself if what Sparky said has any truth in it, and there is.

The Observer UK.
Zafran Bibi was raped, but a Pakistan judge decided it was adultery - now this young mother will be stoned to death

An international campaign site.
Stop Honour Killings

I'm no fan of US foreign policy but I think you shouldn't be propagating the popular perception of a total lack of the ability to accept criticism within the Muslim and Asian communities.

That wasn't at all the point and no one here did that. The protest was over STF's offhand dismissal of a perspective he considered morally inferior simply because its source was ostensibly from a country with reprehensible laws. No one is defending Pakistan's absurd and barbaric stance on protecting women, but instead attacking STF's smugly closed mind.

Maybe I'll write a 'why I hate them' piece.

Rank and file Muslims say nothing about these barbaric atrocities constantly committed in their religion's name yet are completely up in arms and outraged over nonsense like cartoons.
They are allowed to commit the most vile, disgusting and murderous acts every day all over the world and nobody is allowed to comment on it. We must celebrate this wonderful and peaceful religion. We MUST. OR ELSE.

I'm sorry but I won't. Whatever that makes me, so be it.

Nobody is allowed to point this stuff out, suddenly you are this terrible bigot for noticing Muslims seem to be quite loopy in the head.
It's a stupid, intolerant, hateful, violent, murderous religion that has no place in a civilized world.

I used to call it a caveman religion but now that I think about it, I think I'm being way too nice....I doubt cavemen stoned their females to death for being raped...and I don't think they made the female cavemen wear ninja outfits and walk five steps behind the males either.....

I know why they hate us. Because they've been told to since they were born and are completely incapable of independent thought. If some religious wack job didn't preach it to them, they aren't interested.

madlee wrote:

STF wrote:I'll take something written by someone from a country where the penalty for getting raped is being stoned to death with a grain of salt.

that must be one big piece of salt.

10/10

simmo wrote:

madlee wrote:

STF wrote:I'll take something written by someone from a country where the penalty for getting raped is being stoned to death with a grain of salt.

that must be one big piece of salt.

10/10

Could be possible y'know...

Marsupialized wrote:Rank and file Muslims...

How many 'rank and file' Muslims do you know? I'd hazard not that many.

HERE'S a list of mosques in Denver.

How about asking some of these folks how they feel when you go there.