mr.arrison wrote:I guess you have to start somewhere..
Quite true.
By the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
121Quite true.
Quite true.
By the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
122I agree entirely with Bradley's posts. Several others insist that animal cruelty is worse than, or on par with, human abuse because dogs are innocent. You imply that victims of rape, murder, and assault (generally women in the cases discussed) are less innocent somehow. This is fucked.
Dave Zirin (who is completely awesome) also gets it right:
Dave Zirin (who is completely awesome) also gets it right:
I find the reaction to this entire dog fighting case to be a frightening example of the worst kind of group-think: an unreflective mob-mentality run amok. I will not dwell on the various Internet postings that call for Vick to be lynched, beaten, or put in a phone booth with pit bulls. In less than five seconds of mouse-work, you too can buy a "Save a Pit Bull & Neuter Vick" T-shirt. They are easy enough to find since he Internet has always proven comfortable quarters for enterprising bottom feeding parasites.
I will also not harp on the sundry sports columnists using this opportunity to cluck about black athletes, "hip hop gangsta" culture, and what happens when you hold onto your "boyz." I think they speak for themselves. They are as predictable as a setting sun, their arguments and prose so mundane one wonders if they have a computer program where they enter key words like "gangsta", "hip hop", and "boyz" and just watch as the graphs spew themselves.
And I certainly do not wish to draw any unnecessary attention to Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia and the bizarre Senate floor speech in which he condemned Michael Vick to Hades, saying, "I am confident that the hottest places in Hell are reserved for the souls of sick and brutal people who hold God's creatures in such brutal and cruel contempt!" I am also way too classy to may hay out of the fact that Byrd's "youthful indiscretion" was joining the Ku Klux Klan, a group that used dogs on black people the same way people want dogs used on Mr. Vick.
Katha Pollit of the Nation has written that it says something positive about humanity that people are in an uproar about dogs and against the "poisoned narcissists" who make up the athletic community. I think it is the opposite. The humanization of the dog is the painfully ironic mirror image of the dehumanization of the rest of us. Just look at the world with semi-open eyes: How can we rally for the pit bull when one million Iraqis are dead and the US media barely yawns? How can we humanize dogs with such piety as Texas puts Kenneth Foster to death next week – puts him down like a dog for a murder all sides agree he didn't commit? How can we imbue dogs with "language" when the actual words of those calling for help in HIV ravaged Africa are being ignored by our government? How can we cheer violent sports, ignoring – or even celebrating - the mutilation of people's faces and voices, and weep over the pit bulls?
As Chicago Tribune columnist Rick Morrisey wrote, "Abuse your dog, and people howl. Smack around your girlfriend or face charges of sexually assaulting a woman and people shake their heads and roll their eyes." (link)
By the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
123that was my reaction tonight as i saw the rows of michael vick jerseys in the atlanta falcons stadium.a frightening example of the worst kind of group-think: an unreflective mob-mentality run amok.
this one is going to be hard to forget. americans are very forgiving of their celebrities, but he is going to lose so much money before that happens.
this is not the hip hop gangsta culture i know.
this is the millionaire culture i have nothing to do with.
By the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
124mr.arrison wrote:ah, morality.
thinking hard about this on my commute today after reading some Peter Singer.. isn't horse racing in the same neighborhood of cruel as dogfighting?
I don't know much about it, but probably.
or how about standard fois-gras raising? industrial pig-farming?
interesting how humans can be so picky with their moral battles. I guess you have to start somewhere..
As I said earlier, we have a particular responsibility to care for dogs, cats and the like, because we have bred out much of their natural survival and defensive instincts in order that they might be our companions and do our dirty work. They cannot survive and live well without our care because of human intervention. This is why we are (IMO) morally obligated to care for and protect these animals.
By the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
125This idea that people are misguided because of soldiers dying in Iraq or people jailed who are innocent is a bait and switch.
Dog fighting has been not a topic forever, finally this one of many heinous acts by humans gets a little press for a few weeks and the haters are all over it.
What about factory farms, hunting, since when are dogs more important than people etc... its a tired old deflection.
Relative debauchery is not the issue. You can make that same argument in ANY legal case in the news.
They did it w/ Scott Peterson. "Forget laci, what about the thousands of non whites who get killed every year"
That doesnt make the Laci Peterson murder any less brutal and that is not how the system works.
Its not a one or the other deal or no deal situation. Its not "protect the dogs, neglect the humans" who is brokering these deals? its a typical straw man tactic of cookie cutter devil's advocates preying on poorly worded sports journalism.
Because of bunch of hack sports journalists write bad articles about dog fighting and vick does NOT suddenly make being anti dog fighting wrong.
Pigs being brutalized in factory farms in no way lessens the plight of dogs. To suggest so is straw man at best, and at worst its nefarious dog hating "I told you so"
Dog fighting has been not a topic forever, finally this one of many heinous acts by humans gets a little press for a few weeks and the haters are all over it.
What about factory farms, hunting, since when are dogs more important than people etc... its a tired old deflection.
Relative debauchery is not the issue. You can make that same argument in ANY legal case in the news.
They did it w/ Scott Peterson. "Forget laci, what about the thousands of non whites who get killed every year"
That doesnt make the Laci Peterson murder any less brutal and that is not how the system works.
Its not a one or the other deal or no deal situation. Its not "protect the dogs, neglect the humans" who is brokering these deals? its a typical straw man tactic of cookie cutter devil's advocates preying on poorly worded sports journalism.
Because of bunch of hack sports journalists write bad articles about dog fighting and vick does NOT suddenly make being anti dog fighting wrong.
Pigs being brutalized in factory farms in no way lessens the plight of dogs. To suggest so is straw man at best, and at worst its nefarious dog hating "I told you so"
By the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
126Hexpane wrote:This idea that people are misguided because of soldiers dying in Iraq or people jailed who are innocent is a bait and switch.
Dog fighting has been not a topic forever, finally this one of many heinous acts by humans gets a little press for a few weeks and the haters are all over it.
What about factory farms, hunting, since when are dogs more important than people etc... its a tired old deflection.
Relative debauchery is not the issue. You can make that same argument in ANY legal case in the news.
They did it w/ Scott Peterson. "Forget laci, what about the thousands of non whites who get killed every year"
That doesnt make the Laci Peterson murder any less brutal and that is not how the system works.
Its not a one or the other deal or no deal situation. Its not "protect the dogs, neglect the humans" who is brokering these deals? its a typical straw man tactic of cookie cutter devil's advocates preying on poorly worded sports journalism.
Because of bunch of hack sports journalists write bad articles about dog fighting and vick does NOT suddenly make being anti dog fighting wrong.
Pigs being brutalized in factory farms in no way lessens the plight of dogs. To suggest so is straw man at best, and at worst its nefarious dog hating "I told you so"
No it's not. That's not what I am saying. I am saying humans are so oddly picky about their moral battles when dog-fighting is one immoral thing among many that humans perpetrate against animals, such as industrial, profit-driven factory farms that raise and slaughter pigs inhumanely and wreck ecosystems in the process.
It's like everyone is all up in arms about this, as they should be. But there's other bad shit happening elsewhere- to DOGS even. They make fur coats in China out of dog and cat fur, sell them to American stores and there's less of an outcry:
Perhaps it's because pitbulls are dogs and dogs are PETS. And because Vick is a fucking sports star. It's a tabloid-level, Entertainment Tonight story that "touches your heart" but it's just as fucked up as 100 other things going on that receive no or little consideration by the mainstream media and the average american.
The only thing good about the whole ordeal is that it might make some people think. I can only hope.
By the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
127The issues brought up here are interesting. I tend to look at it as more of a societal approach to the use of animals, period. For example, my family, starting two generations back, owned their own small farms, and used them to produce most of what they consumed. They would trade foodstuffs with neighbors as well. Animals on the family farms were treated pretty well...they had as much open range as the property would allow. Hell, one sow ended up roaming free, and behaved as a pet (would come when called, played with the kids, etc.).
This model clashes severely with more modern, 'market-competitive' farms. As you can imagine, without going into the usual diatribes you can find everywhere else, animals are treated poorly. The quality of the products suffers, as well.
Basically, I think it is more complicated than the way these arguments are typically framed. I, for example, don't have any issues with using animals for food, etc. And, despite the obvious weirdness, I don't have as much of an issue with using animals for recreational purposes as I do with modern farming techniques. If we had a better paradigm in place for dealing with this whole issue, the relatively small problems of morality and the recreational destruction of animals could at least be discussed feasibly against a sane backdrop. I would rather see tolerance and reasonable regulation as an alternative to forcing the whole thing underground.
This model clashes severely with more modern, 'market-competitive' farms. As you can imagine, without going into the usual diatribes you can find everywhere else, animals are treated poorly. The quality of the products suffers, as well.
Basically, I think it is more complicated than the way these arguments are typically framed. I, for example, don't have any issues with using animals for food, etc. And, despite the obvious weirdness, I don't have as much of an issue with using animals for recreational purposes as I do with modern farming techniques. If we had a better paradigm in place for dealing with this whole issue, the relatively small problems of morality and the recreational destruction of animals could at least be discussed feasibly against a sane backdrop. I would rather see tolerance and reasonable regulation as an alternative to forcing the whole thing underground.
By the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
128I'm still not quite sure how some of you feel entitled to be the official and final arbiters of what and what not the rest of us should be outraged about but good luck with that.
Oh and by the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
Oh and by the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
it's not the length, it's the gersch
By the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
129All of this claptrap about it being hypocritical to be outraged about animal abuse fails to point out any reason why we should not be outraged.
Dogs are tortured. Anger and blame ensues.
That's a pretty cut-and-dried equation right there. It has nothing to do with disrespecting women or racist animosity or downplaying other types of (officially sanctioned) animal cruelty, such as testing for products. Now, just because some ignorant folks will just use this occasion as an excuse to unleash their own secret feelings of racism doesn't mean that non-racist folks can't be angry about animal torture.
Also, this statement right here is delusional:
Dogs are tortured. Anger ensues.
Can someone point out to me why this seems to be confusing to some folks?
By the way, Vick's a piece of shit.
Dogs are tortured. Anger and blame ensues.
That's a pretty cut-and-dried equation right there. It has nothing to do with disrespecting women or racist animosity or downplaying other types of (officially sanctioned) animal cruelty, such as testing for products. Now, just because some ignorant folks will just use this occasion as an excuse to unleash their own secret feelings of racism doesn't mean that non-racist folks can't be angry about animal torture.
Also, this statement right here is delusional:
No one is saying or even remotely implying that rape and murder are less detestable than animal cruelty. But since the former are unfortunately much more commonly publicized in the American media, the shock of seeing the underbelly of dog torture rings is what has people up in arms. This issue has simply never spoken to the average American until now, and I for one think that this publicity is completely beneficial. It will generate some healthy activism in an area of society which has escaped our inspection for too long.Andrew wrote:Several others insist that animal cruelty is worse than, or on par with, human abuse because dogs are innocent. You imply that victims of rape, murder, and assault (generally women in the cases discussed) are less innocent somehow. This is fucked.
Dogs are tortured. Anger ensues.
Can someone point out to me why this seems to be confusing to some folks?
By the way, Vick's a piece of shit.
By the way, Michael Vick is a piece of shit.
130mr.arrison wrote:
Perhaps it's because pitbulls are dogs and dogs are PETS. And because Vick is a fucking sports star. It's a tabloid-level, Entertainment Tonight story that "touches your heart" but it's just as fucked up as 100 other things going on that receive no or little consideration by the mainstream media and the average american.
The only thing good about the whole ordeal is that it might make some people think. I can only hope.
I don't think you have to convince anyone here that is cruel, or that media ignores it. That again is not the point. Of course what is happening in China outrages us, it outrages me every day... but its another topic for another thread and in no way invalidates the anti dog fighting 2 week buzz.
It will be gone soon, Vick will be in jail-lite and 99.9% of animal abusers/dogfighters/cat breeders for fur etc... will go right back to what they were doing before hand.
Is it so much to ask for a little tiny bit of media buzz against animal abuse, we will take any buzz we can get on the issue.