any one have nice ways of recording a shit ass snare...i put a 57 and somtimes a 421 on it and get decent results. EQ/compression settings i could try? any thing or sugestions id like to try.
thanks
snare recording
2You can find many threads on this subject if you search this site.
If the snare is "shit ass," there is your first problem.
What is your definition of "decent?"
What board and/or mic pre's are you using?
This can affect the sound GREATLY. Not just from the mic:
The 57 may be a problem due to its lack of picking up anything outside of mid-range frequencies very well (my experience and the "word" on the street.)
The 421 would do better, but, to me, is not effective enough.
The question of EQing is a subjective, need-for-experience deal.
Usually the less the EQ, the better (phase shifts, frequency problems with other instruments in mix; I know Bob Weston touched on phase shiftings in a post.)
The idea is to choose your mic for the specific snare being recorded.
Compression is the same as the EQ, but on different levels.
The basic ideas of compressing drums are:
1) To limit the peak in a snare hit (usually) to the other drums. This comes in handy particularly for overhead recordings (my experience yet again.)
2) To bring up weaker signals to match louder signals. Kind of the same as the first, but in different ways.
The first makes no. 2 nil for occurance.
A third idea could be to mask the signal on purpose. [/u]No. 4[u] by STP is a good example, but I do not include for "basic" ideas.
Basically experiment with the mics you have using whatever sounds right to you, buy new microphones and/or equipment, buy a new snare, or some other reason that makes sense to you.
Hope this helps.
If the snare is "shit ass," there is your first problem.
What is your definition of "decent?"
What board and/or mic pre's are you using?
This can affect the sound GREATLY. Not just from the mic:
The 57 may be a problem due to its lack of picking up anything outside of mid-range frequencies very well (my experience and the "word" on the street.)
The 421 would do better, but, to me, is not effective enough.
The question of EQing is a subjective, need-for-experience deal.
Usually the less the EQ, the better (phase shifts, frequency problems with other instruments in mix; I know Bob Weston touched on phase shiftings in a post.)
The idea is to choose your mic for the specific snare being recorded.
Compression is the same as the EQ, but on different levels.
The basic ideas of compressing drums are:
1) To limit the peak in a snare hit (usually) to the other drums. This comes in handy particularly for overhead recordings (my experience yet again.)
2) To bring up weaker signals to match louder signals. Kind of the same as the first, but in different ways.
The first makes no. 2 nil for occurance.
A third idea could be to mask the signal on purpose. [/u]No. 4[u] by STP is a good example, but I do not include for "basic" ideas.
Basically experiment with the mics you have using whatever sounds right to you, buy new microphones and/or equipment, buy a new snare, or some other reason that makes sense to you.
Hope this helps.
snare recording
3There are some very sad truths about the recording of snare drums:
- If your room sounds bad or dead with flutter echoes, combfiltering and I don't know what sad things else, it's almost impossible to get a great snare sound.
- If the drummer is not hitting the snare right - I don't don't say hard enough, just not right - it's very hard to get a great snare sound.
- If the snare itself is not tuned right, or the skin she is very old, or if it's the wrong kind of snare for the style of music - it's quite a task to get decent sounds out of it.
- Even sadder truth: A microphone is a microphone is a microphone - it's not a magic wand.
According to my limited experiences it's not a question of EQ or compression but a question of how your instrument sounds in the room. The first time I recorded a drum kit in a really good live-room was an eye opener and I realized how sad it is to record in poor sounding rooms and that's where the majority of my recordings take place. Sad, innit?
A lot of a snare's sound is determent by the snare sound in the overhead or room microphones
I listen to the snare in the room, set up mics, pull up faders in the control room and then I have some minor adjustments of microphone placement or drum tuning, if necessary. That's all that there is.
If your looking for a SM57 sound on your recording and a lot of people do, then there's nothing wrong with using a SM57.
Edit:
I was rereading my post and found it not very helpful.
What I actually wanted to say was that you should start looking elsewhere than at EQ, compression or a different mic.
Instead of buying a third snare mic, get yourself a second snare drum.
You could probably stick five different mics at your snare and they would all sound quite similar. With different top end, mid range clarity, bottom end representation, different transient responses or different abilities to handle sound pressure levels but the biggest difference will come from a different snare drum.
Get yourself one of Alton Everest's books on studio design, read them and improve the acoustic properties of your room.
Good luck, Max.
- If your room sounds bad or dead with flutter echoes, combfiltering and I don't know what sad things else, it's almost impossible to get a great snare sound.
- If the drummer is not hitting the snare right - I don't don't say hard enough, just not right - it's very hard to get a great snare sound.
- If the snare itself is not tuned right, or the skin she is very old, or if it's the wrong kind of snare for the style of music - it's quite a task to get decent sounds out of it.
- Even sadder truth: A microphone is a microphone is a microphone - it's not a magic wand.
According to my limited experiences it's not a question of EQ or compression but a question of how your instrument sounds in the room. The first time I recorded a drum kit in a really good live-room was an eye opener and I realized how sad it is to record in poor sounding rooms and that's where the majority of my recordings take place. Sad, innit?
A lot of a snare's sound is determent by the snare sound in the overhead or room microphones
I listen to the snare in the room, set up mics, pull up faders in the control room and then I have some minor adjustments of microphone placement or drum tuning, if necessary. That's all that there is.
If your looking for a SM57 sound on your recording and a lot of people do, then there's nothing wrong with using a SM57.
Edit:
I was rereading my post and found it not very helpful.
What I actually wanted to say was that you should start looking elsewhere than at EQ, compression or a different mic.
Instead of buying a third snare mic, get yourself a second snare drum.
You could probably stick five different mics at your snare and they would all sound quite similar. With different top end, mid range clarity, bottom end representation, different transient responses or different abilities to handle sound pressure levels but the biggest difference will come from a different snare drum.
Get yourself one of Alton Everest's books on studio design, read them and improve the acoustic properties of your room.
Good luck, Max.
snare recording
4If you have a stubborn drummer and can't get him/her to use a different snare drum...
While recording our CD I came to a huge problem with the snare drum. Our drummer insists on using a high, ear-piercing, annoying-as-hell picolo snare drum. I wouldn't complain if we were reggae or ska, or anything but fast rock. It sounded simply awful. I used a 57 on the top of the snare because it worked on our last album (before the evil snare.) I can't remember what mic I used for the bottom, but it was more of a cheap, generic, lower response mic.
I ended up completely muting the 57, turning the low snare up a bit, but the overhead (surprisingly a MXL 991) picked up the snare amazingly!
All these guys are all right in what they say(and they all know more than me); but sometimes changing your room or getting a new snare isn't an option.
This post wasn't really too helpful I know... but what exactly makes it sound so shitty? Too high? Too low? Just in need of a good tuning? New head? New...uh, chain... thing?
While recording our CD I came to a huge problem with the snare drum. Our drummer insists on using a high, ear-piercing, annoying-as-hell picolo snare drum. I wouldn't complain if we were reggae or ska, or anything but fast rock. It sounded simply awful. I used a 57 on the top of the snare because it worked on our last album (before the evil snare.) I can't remember what mic I used for the bottom, but it was more of a cheap, generic, lower response mic.
I ended up completely muting the 57, turning the low snare up a bit, but the overhead (surprisingly a MXL 991) picked up the snare amazingly!
All these guys are all right in what they say(and they all know more than me); but sometimes changing your room or getting a new snare isn't an option.
This post wasn't really too helpful I know... but what exactly makes it sound so shitty? Too high? Too low? Just in need of a good tuning? New head? New...uh, chain... thing?
snare recording
5skatingbasser wrote:New...uh, chain... thing?
I believe the term you're looking for is "snares." That is what the small "chains" stretched across the bottom head on a snare drum are called.
A decent snare drum for studio use will cost probably around $200-$500, same as you'd spend on a decent compressor or mic. The more you know about each instrument in terms of tuning and maintaining it, the easier it will be to figure out how to get a great sound out of it. So if you're not a drummer, read up a bit on how to tune drums, and the correct way to play them. It will help you identify the respective lines between a problem drum, problem drummer, or problem recording.
If you're after a "solid" snare sound (isn't everyone?), try emphasizing to your drummer how much consistency matters while recording. Try to have him hit the snare in the same place on every hit. Dynamics are important too, but often inexperienced drummers will use "dynamics" as an excuse for "inconsistency."
One thing I'm fond of saying in the studio is "you can't polish a turd." All the compression and EQ in the world won't help if the original track is sloppy. However, if it sounds thin, try boosting at 250 Hz (or cutting higher frequencies and raising the volume). If it's too "pingy", look for the frequency that jumps out (a sweepable mid control is excellent for this) and cut that one. You can use the same trick to search for hi-hat bleed in the snare track.
One thing I sometimes do for drums is submix all the drum tracks to a stereo group and then EQ / compress the group. This way the kick and snare tend to occupy the same "space" in the mix, and you don't end up with a thumpy kick and snare that gets lost when the guitar starts in. Or toms that either are too quiet or too loud. You have to be careful because it's easy to overcompress/over EQ though.
Another trick that I haven't tried but have heard of is to "mult" the drum mix out to a compressor, and mix that with the uncompressed sound. Yet another is to mix a small amount of a sampled snare sound in with the real recorded one to give it a more balanced sound.
Good luck.
snare recording
6If you happen to be in the chicago area I would be glad to offer you the use of one of my snares to get you out of a pinch.
5X14 brass free floater - sounds pretty standard, nothing too special.
6.5x14 Steel - my favorite right now, snare side tuned low with the batter about 3 notes above.
5X14 brass free floater - sounds pretty standard, nothing too special.
6.5x14 Steel - my favorite right now, snare side tuned low with the batter about 3 notes above.
snare recording
7Wait a minute,
you asked about a shit ass snare!
If you seriously want to record a snare that sounds like shit try a sensitive transformerless microphones, something real shitty. I've used an AKG C391 with CK91 capsule once and that sounded really bad because it was overloading the internal electronics of the mic. Transformerless mics are even nastier here because when the overload the transformers of mic pres she sounds really shitty, porca madonna! Mic the bottom of the snare exclusively for an even shittier sound.
Overloading electronics and distorting snares is the way to go if you ask me.
You could try something like a Crown GLM 100 and tape it to the side of the snare. Then plug it into something like a Mackie preamp and boost 250 Hz and 4KHz to an insane amount. When you use a compressor, don't set the attack to fast, you want to keep the initial farting sound of your shit ass snare but compress it hard. Overload the Preamp to taste. I've never had good Shit when overloading the tape machine.
I can imagine that a snare in a small tiled bathroom will sound really shit ass. Have you thought about using something else for a snare? A metal bucket or an emty snare case.
The sky is the limit when it comes to shit ass. Be creative and let us know about your results.
Best, Max
you asked about a shit ass snare!
If you seriously want to record a snare that sounds like shit try a sensitive transformerless microphones, something real shitty. I've used an AKG C391 with CK91 capsule once and that sounded really bad because it was overloading the internal electronics of the mic. Transformerless mics are even nastier here because when the overload the transformers of mic pres she sounds really shitty, porca madonna! Mic the bottom of the snare exclusively for an even shittier sound.
Overloading electronics and distorting snares is the way to go if you ask me.
You could try something like a Crown GLM 100 and tape it to the side of the snare. Then plug it into something like a Mackie preamp and boost 250 Hz and 4KHz to an insane amount. When you use a compressor, don't set the attack to fast, you want to keep the initial farting sound of your shit ass snare but compress it hard. Overload the Preamp to taste. I've never had good Shit when overloading the tape machine.
I can imagine that a snare in a small tiled bathroom will sound really shit ass. Have you thought about using something else for a snare? A metal bucket or an emty snare case.
The sky is the limit when it comes to shit ass. Be creative and let us know about your results.
Best, Max
snare recording
8Have you thought about using something else for a snare? A metal bucket or an emty snare case.
....Or a baseball bat smacked flat against a 3" thick oak table.
snare recording
9I'll second (or third or fourth) the recommendation to spend your new mic money on a better snare. A shit ass snare sounds like a shit ass snare, even if you put a U67 on it.
However, as far as mics go, I have to say that ditching those 57's and getting yourself some Beyer M-201s will make your day brighter, put a spring in your step, and take years off your face....okay maybe not that much, but I can't say enough about using a 201 anyplace you'd use a 57. It's a hi-fi version of the 57, nice sharp attack on the upper mids, but a full range sound, with plenty of bottom and a quality sheen on the top.
They aren't $100 like a 57 though.
YMMV
However, as far as mics go, I have to say that ditching those 57's and getting yourself some Beyer M-201s will make your day brighter, put a spring in your step, and take years off your face....okay maybe not that much, but I can't say enough about using a 201 anyplace you'd use a 57. It's a hi-fi version of the 57, nice sharp attack on the upper mids, but a full range sound, with plenty of bottom and a quality sheen on the top.
They aren't $100 like a 57 though.
YMMV
snare recording
10The fact that a 57 isn't as high fi as other mics is the reason I like em so. Sometimes I'll put up a 57, 421 and 201 and dig the 57 the best because it just sounds right. Not better, just right for the song or mix.
To the original poster, get a better snare. You can find a ton of good, generic snares on ebay for around $200. Here's a few examples:
Ludwig Supra 5x14 $150-250
Rogers Powertone 5x14 COB $100-200
Worldmax Black Hawg or Dawg $200-250 new
Pearl Sensitone (lots of different models) under $200
There are a zillion other decent ones out there, but this is a good start for you.
later,
m
To the original poster, get a better snare. You can find a ton of good, generic snares on ebay for around $200. Here's a few examples:
Ludwig Supra 5x14 $150-250
Rogers Powertone 5x14 COB $100-200
Worldmax Black Hawg or Dawg $200-250 new
Pearl Sensitone (lots of different models) under $200
There are a zillion other decent ones out there, but this is a good start for you.
later,
m