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Cranius wrote:
sparky wrote:I'd wager good money that 95% of these facets were deliberately engineered: wicked records are not flukes.


I feel this is the crux of what is being discussed. This is not really a genre war of classical vs rock or jazz vs rock. I think it would more useful to look at it in terms of compositional music and improvisational music. The process by which composers and groups arrive at their musical destination says alot about what they finally express. Alot of Bach is born out improvisational scale work. Jazz groups work around pre-agreed chord progressions and a reliance technique to give themselves expressive freedom. Phillip Glass works in a highly regimented structural manner. Rock groups sythesize both regimentation and visceral expressive qualities to produce a new tradition of music (rock is not a folk music, it is a modern tradition). Some electronic groups like kraftwerk suppress individualistic qualities deference to group aesthetic. Bob Log III is a motherfucking one-man-band. I could keep going. What is important is that whilst some deny the accident others embrace it; you could say almost worship it. Sometimes your best inventions are mistakes.

Orchestras are a dictatorships, lead by conductor/composer. The voices of the musicians are controlled in this regard to produce the mood that the piece requires, although there are usually one or two key players. Rock and Jazz groups are far more democratic although obviously there are different degrees of this.

Personally I prefer music that is born out of improvisation, wether that comes from group rehearsal or based on tacitly agreed theoretical precepts. There is political element to why I think this which to do with the model society I favour. The CIA during the cold war funded international tours of the works of abstract expressionists such as Pollock as a showcase for American individualism. They certainly seemed to think there was a political capital to be made from expressive freedom. Which kind of brings us back to good and bad faith and wether you believe you have free will. For instance I don't like Frank Zappa's music because I think he composes in bad faith.

As regards 'schtick', alot of very straight forward performers employ it. When James Brown is down on his knees and they bring him his cape, is that 'schtick'? Or is it merely exuberant showmanship that lies at the heart of a genuine persona?

Wierdly enough free will is today's featured article on wikipedia.


In this context, I feel that I ought to clarify my quote above. What I meant to say is that the artists selected the recorded sound from a series of sessions in which a degree of improvisation would have been involved. I agree with the above: I am a strong believer in the happy accident. I think that the merit of the group lies in being able to create a situation in which such happy accidents are likely to occur, and being able to successfuly identify and preserve such instances.

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sparky wrote:In this context, I feel that I ought to clarify my quote above. What I meant to say is that the artists selected the recorded sound from a series of sessions in which a degree of improvisation would have been involved. I agree with the above: I am a strong believer in the happy accident. I think that the merit of the group lies in being able to create a situation in which such happy accidents are likely to occur, and being able to successfuly identify and preserve such instances.


This wasn't a criticism of your statement. I just wanted to extrapolate that particular strand of ideas.

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Cranius wrote:
Alot of Bach is born out improvisational scale work.


I don't really see how the music of Bach is relevant here; we are talking about contemporary music are we not? Otherwise we should be talking about folk music of that time rather than rock.

For instance I don't like Frank Zappa's music because I think he composes in bad faith, which seems to be in contradiction to values he espouses.


Interesting point; could you explain what you mean please if you have a spare moment? Ta!

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Champion Rabbit wrote:
For instance I don't like Frank Zappa's music because I think he composes in bad faith, which seems to be in contradiction to values he espouses.


Interesting point; could you explain what you mean please if you have a spare moment? Ta!


I guess because everthing is joke to him. Also there is element control freakery in his music that does not appeal to me because it seems contrary to his so-called humour. If only he made a few more records like Hot Rats I might be a bit more bothered about him.

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Cranius wrote:
Champion Rabbit wrote:
For instance I don't like Frank Zappa's music because I think he composes in bad faith, which seems to be in contradiction to values he espouses.


Interesting point; could you explain what you mean please if you have a spare moment? Ta!


I guess because everthing is joke to him. Also there is element control freakery in his music that does not appeal to me because it seems contrary to his so-called humour. If only he made a few more records like Hot Rats I might be a bit more bothered about him.


Ah; okay!

Cheers.

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Champion Rabbit wrote:[Ok then.

Can we fairly judge all rock by the same criteria?

If not then of what value is the analysis?

Or is 'rock' even a genre?

Take Steve Vai (please!) and The Stooges.

Vai is an awesome technician is he not? His music is arguably more 'sophisticated' is it not? He has 'ticks' and is INSTANTLY recognisable. On paper Vai should be a shining example for those who are arguing against my point.

If somebody had brought Vai up and claimed that he was an example of rock being 'sophisticated', 'developed' and 'demanding' then I would have to agree.

Yet I would say that whilst I love the The Stooges, I would rather eat my own cock than attend a Vai concert.

Why?

Because the stooges are simply FUCKING GREAT!

And Vai is simply FUCKING HORRIBLE!

Ha!

Analyse THAT!

And that is the basic point I am trying to make; far from insulting rock music by refusing to subject it to analysis, we are rather EMBRACING it's pure 'otherness'.

Plenty of people here have talked about the 'freedom' of the rock format; the beauty of it's refusal to adhere to rigid patternss (questionable though this claim might be) and surely if we accept this then attempting to force the 'product' back into a cage for analytical purposes is totally counter-productive?


I reckon.

Happy Decemberween!

Adam


Haven't quite buggered off yet - have a tedious, spare day with little to do or see except gawp at a computer screen and buy Indian sweets for my mum. One last post then I will head out to find out what pistachio burfi looks like.

I don't think that discussing rock music diminishes its freedom or otherness. I think that it is fun, stimulating and can get you to appreciate aspects of particular songs or pieces that you had previously overlooked (and I would use this and other discussions on this forum as evidence for that). You could say that Vai is technically gifted but horrible and the Stooges rock, and that would be a valid statement from your point of view and one that most of us would agree with. However, you could also go on to write about what it is about the Stooges that gets you going. For me, I love those pig primeval riffs, I love that hideously loud fuzzy wah-wah and the way that it pierces through everything else on their first album, and I love the sudden entrance of the saxaphone on "1970" and the weird psychedelic feeling I get in my head at the same time. These are feelings specific to me, but there is the possibility that they might ring true for you. Or you could think that I am talking crap. But either way, it has made you think, at least briefly, and if you wish, given grounds to continue a conversation. Or perhaps even revisit a track that you had previously written off. If we love rock, then we get pleasure from talking about it, whether in basic ugh good/face-slaying terms, or in dense, analytical, poetic or academic spiels. Back to my previous example, Michael Azerrad did such a good job (to me) of describing and boosting Mission of Burma, that I felt compelled to go back to a band that I had foolishly written off due to a lazy five minute exposure at ATP. And I did feel stupid.

Wandering back onto the unstable ground that is the criteria/subjectivity argument, I would go back to my point that an individual's criteria and their ordering of their criteria will always be different to those of everyone else. However, I do not think that this precludes meaningful dialogue between individuals - it just means that talk may get a little feistier. All good fun, in my opinion.

Cranius, you point is a sterling one but my head's spinning, so I cannot expand on it. Anyone else?

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sparky wrote:
Champion Rabbit wrote:[Ok then.

Can we fairly judge all rock by the same criteria?

If not then of what value is the analysis?

Or is 'rock' even a genre?

Take Steve Vai (please!) and The Stooges.

Vai is an awesome technician is he not? His music is arguably more 'sophisticated' is it not? He has 'ticks' and is INSTANTLY recognisable. On paper Vai should be a shining example for those who are arguing against my point.

If somebody had brought Vai up and claimed that he was an example of rock being 'sophisticated', 'developed' and 'demanding' then I would have to agree.

Yet I would say that whilst I love the The Stooges, I would rather eat my own cock than attend a Vai concert.

Why?

Because the stooges are simply FUCKING GREAT!

And Vai is simply FUCKING HORRIBLE!

Ha!

Analyse THAT!

And that is the basic point I am trying to make; far from insulting rock music by refusing to subject it to analysis, we are rather EMBRACING it's pure 'otherness'.

Plenty of people here have talked about the 'freedom' of the rock format; the beauty of it's refusal to adhere to rigid patternss (questionable though this claim might be) and surely if we accept this then attempting to force the 'product' back into a cage for analytical purposes is totally counter-productive?


I reckon.

Happy Decemberween!

Adam


Haven't quite buggered off yet - have a tedious, spare day with little to do or see except gawp at a computer screen and buy Indian sweets for my mum. One last post then I will head out to find out what pistachio burfi looks like.

I don't think that discussing rock music diminishes its freedom or otherness. I think that it is fun, stimulating and can get you to appreciate aspects of particular songs or pieces that you had previously overlooked (and I would use this and other discussions on this forum as evidence for that). You could say that Vai is technically gifted but horrible and the Stooges rock, and that would be a valid statement from your point of view and one that most of us would agree with. However, you could also go on to write about what it is about the Stooges that gets you going. For me, I love those pig primeval riffs, I love that hideously loud fuzzy wah-wah and the way that it pierces through everything else on their first album, and I love the sudden entrance of the saxaphone on "1970" and the weird psychedelic feeling I get in my head at the same time. These are feelings specific to me, but there is the possibility that they might ring true for you. Or you could think that I am talking crap. But either way, it has made you think, at least briefly, and if you wish, given grounds to continue a conversation. Or perhaps even revisit a track that you had previously written off. If we love rock, then we get pleasure from talking about it, whether in basic ugh good/face-slaying terms, or in dense, analytical, poetic or academic spiels. Back to my previous example, Michael Azerrad did such a good job (to me) of describing and boosting Mission of Burma, that I felt compelled to go back to a band that I had foolishly written off due to a lazy five minute exposure at ATP. And I did feel stupid.

Wandering back onto the unstable ground that is the criteria/subjectivity argument, I would go back to my point that an individual's criteria and their ordering of their criteria will always be different to those of everyone else. However, I do not think that this precludes meaningful dialogue between individuals - it just means that talk may get a little feistier. All good fun, in my opinion.

Cranius, you point is a sterling one but my head's spinning, so I cannot expand on it. Anyone else?


Your points are good; I am tempted to insist that we force a wedge twixt 'talking about' and 'analysing' and perhaps another between describing/analysing one's reaction to music as opposed to describing/analysing the actual music.

But this conversation/argument/poo-fling has become hilariously convoluted; my brain hurts.

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Champion Rabbit wrote:
Cranius wrote:Alot of Bach is born out improvisational scale work.






I don't really see how the music of Bach is relevant here; we are talking about contemporary music are we not? Otherwise we should be talking about folk music of that time rather than rock.



Bach was the first truly modern composer/musician. You'll have to excuse me if get any the following musical terms wrong but my theory is shakey at best. He discovered of a mathematical mistake in Pythagoras's pentatonic scale which had previous limited musicians to two playing music in two overlapping scales. This is why medeival plain song music sounds they way it does and early folk music contained alot of dissonance. This meant groups of musicians had retune their instruments play in different keys. By mathematically tweaking this anomoly he was able tune all instruments to be playable in every key without being dissonant. If you look the majority of his music it is mostly an improvisational exploration of key cycles. He really discovered a whole new musical world. We can't discriminate against him just because he wasn't born in the twentieth century.

Interestingly enough modern classical music and rock have bought dissonance back into music.

Honestly rabbit I can't do all your thinking for you. I actually do work for someone else.

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Cranius wrote:
Champion Rabbit wrote:
Cranius wrote:Alot of Bach is born out improvisational scale work.






I don't really see how the music of Bach is relevant here; we are talking about contemporary music are we not? Otherwise we should be talking about folk music of that time rather than rock.



Bach was the first truly modern composer/musician. You'll have to excuse me if get any the following musical terms wrong but my theory is shakey at best. He discovered of a mathematical mistake in Pythagoras's pentatonic scale which had previous limited musicians to two playing music in two overlapping scales. This is why medeival plain song music sounds they way it does and early folk music contained alot of dissonance. This meant groups of musicians had retune their instruments play in different keys. By mathematically tweaking this anomoly he was able tune all instruments to be playable in every key without being dissonant. If you look the majority of his music it is mostly an improvisational exploration of key cycles. He really discovered a whole new musical world. We can't discriminate against him just because he wasn't born in the twentieth century.

Interestingly enough modern classical music and rock have bought dissonance back into music.

Honestly rabbit I can't do all your thinking for you. I actually do work for someone else.


If you are talking about equal temporament then you are talking nonsense.

Stuff like this:

Honestly rabbit I can't do all your thinking for you. I actually do work for someone else.


is an open invitation for egg on your face.

Tee hee.

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