Ron Paul?

No way he will get the nomination
Total votes: 67 (64%)
He has a chance of the nomination, but he could never beat the Democrats
Total votes: 4 (4%)
Paul in '08!
Total votes: 33 (32%)
Total votes: 104

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

41
big_dave wrote:Simple enough you to cut up it up into a neat little dichotomy, eh.


If the conversation comes down to centralized banking and state controlled, then yes, it is lesser of two evils. A nice, neat little dichotomy, like your view of american politics.

big_dave wrote:Aside from maths, physics, engineering, linguistics, behavioural psychology, economics, biology, demographics, etc. etc.

If we can have all those things "on paper", why not politics as well?


Nice and clever, as always :roll:. I was speaking about politics. Since physics, linguistics, and biology doesn't involve corruption and propaganda, I doubt politics can be as it on paper.

big_dave wrote:It was a beautiful day. Go on, be asinine rather than address the point I just made.


The "point" you made was a shit one. My distrust of government began far before the Bush administration, but it does validate my point of view.

If you'd like to know something, ask like a decent person, instead of implying my politics fell out of the television. My political outlook isn't some sort of reaction against the Bushies.
Marsupialized wrote:I want a piano made out of jello.
It's the only way I'll be able to achieve the sound I hear in my head.

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

42
Skronk wrote: A nice, neat little dichotomy, like your view of american politics.


How so?

Nice and clever, as always :roll:. I was speaking about politics. Since physics, linguistics, and biology doesn't involve corruption and propaganda, I doubt politics can be as it on paper.


Oh don't they? Bad logic, propaganda and corruption exist in all parts of our intellectual life.

Physics : cold fusion, anti-gravity, perpetual motion, toxic waste, depleted uranium

Linguistics : objectivism, ethnocentricism, literalism, "pre babel" linguistics

Biology : creation science, piltdown man, the missing link, phrenology, racism

And many more. Particularly in Victorian biology.


The "point" you made was a shit one. My distrust of government began far before the Bush administration, but it does validate my point of view.


No it doesn't because it uses your point and works backwards to assume a political position.

If you'd like to know something, ask like a decent person, instead of implying my politics fell out of the television. My political outlook isn't some sort of reaction against the Bushies.


Man, I swear I didn't. You're the board's loveable contrarian and stay that way. There is a future in it.

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

43
chet wrote: Thats Mike Gravel who wants to get rid of the income tax and replace it with a greatly-increased sales tax. You have a point there about Gravel; it would tax the lower/middle class more than the upper class with a sales tax.


Then Paul is even more insane than Gravel. Here's a quickie economics lesson for you guys:

The trade deficit is ballooning out of control. I think it's hovering at somewhere around $7 to $8 billion. This figure represents the amount of money that foreign governments and businesses loan to us. They do this in return for our purchasing of cheap foreign goods.

Here's the problem. Because our deficit is getting out of control, foreign investors are losing interest in the dollar and starting to encourage exports to up and coming countries such as China and Europe.

The eventual result of this process may be a mass devaluation of the dollar as other currencies take their positions as fluid world currencies. This situation, needless to say, would be horrible for the U.S. economy, and our ability to consume at the rate we have now generated would be weakened significantly.

Here's the kicker: Ron Paul wants to get rid of the one major avenue that could help to balance the deficit: Income taxes. Specifically, income taxes on the wealthiest segment of American society--which should be INCREASED. Doing the latter would be a reversal of Bush's policies and a return to the Clinton era of (relative) financial responsibility.

So, Paul is apparently of the opinion that, if he ends taxation while simulataneously doing away with government programs--i.e., cutting revenue while also cutting spending--he will somehow contribute to the lowering of the deficit and the concomitant strengthening of the dollar which such a move would imply. But this would not occur. Basic math tells us that 0 + 0 = 0. The deficit would be right where it was. And we'd be even more fucked than we were before, because we'd have no way to hammer away at it.

What do you guys think will happen when, as would inevitably occur, our economy is severely weakened by foreign disinvestment, AND we have no public programs with which to battle the hardships that would ensue? Just think about it for a moment, although I know that thinking is not ya'all's strong suit.

And all of this nonsensical talk about how I want "more government in our lives"? Give me a fucking break. You guys sound like you're at a kindergarten level of understanding how government works. Try to put together the implications of your lunatic ideas:

Cutting federal regulatory commissions such as the FCC, the SEC and the EPA? You would then see even more radical corporate domination of the media, business practices and environmental destruction. Take away the restraints that exist, and you take us back to the 19th century, when minimum wages didn't exist, people's health was destroyed by pollutants, and the stock market was allowed to rage out of control.

Doing away with public education? That's a genius notion. Then we'd have the top one percent of our population sending their kids to religious preparatory schools while the other 99 percent had to have their kids work for a living to support the family, which is now hamstrung by the fact that food is more expensive (thanks to the relinquishing of price control mechanisms), basic services such as electricity, running water, the quality of the roads, public legal defense, etc. are either too expensive or unobtainable, and the jobs at which they work pay them three bucks an hour and feature horrible safety regulations. Sounds like a pretty world, doesn't it.

Again, you guys are talking out of your asses. You and all of Ron Paul's supporters live in a fantasy world that has no connection to real world exigencies.

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

44
NerblyBear wrote:......


Give you a break? For what? If you can't understand that every major problem we have in this country, from illegal wiretapping, to an illegal war, and war on the underclass, is brought on by more government, maybe you need to look around. Public education's worked out so damned well, hasn't it? That's why America's the top country in education, right? Oh wait.

You really the FCC to regulate something as worthless as television? I can't believe you're arguing for the censors. Radical corporate domination of the media won't end because the government gets involved, it'll only further it, like it has already.

So, explain to me, what would more government do in a positive sense, that it couldn't or wouldn't do now? I'm genuinely interested.
Marsupialized wrote:I want a piano made out of jello.
It's the only way I'll be able to achieve the sound I hear in my head.

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

45
NerblyBear wrote:
chet wrote: Thats Mike Gravel who wants to get rid of the income tax and replace it with a greatly-increased sales tax. You have a point there about Gravel; it would tax the lower/middle class more than the upper class with a sales tax.


Then Paul is even more insane than Gravel. Here's a quickie economics lesson for you guys:

The trade deficit is ballooning out of control. I think it's hovering at somewhere around $7 to $8 billion. This figure represents the amount of money that foreign governments and businesses loan to us. They do this in return for our purchasing of cheap foreign goods.

Here's the problem. Because our deficit is getting out of control, foreign investors are losing interest in the dollar and starting to encourage exports to up and coming countries such as China and Europe.

The eventual result of this process may be a mass devaluation of the dollar as other currencies take their positions as fluid world currencies. This situation, needless to say, would be horrible for the U.S. economy, and our ability to consume at the rate we have now generated would be weakened significantly.

Here's the kicker: Ron Paul wants to get rid of the one major avenue that could help to balance the deficit: Income taxes. Specifically, income taxes on the wealthiest segment of American society--which should be INCREASED. Doing the latter would be a reversal of Bush's policies and a return to the Clinton era of (relative) financial responsibility.

So, Paul is apparently of the opinion that, if he ends taxation while simulataneously doing away with government programs--i.e., cutting revenue while also cutting spending--he will somehow contribute to the lowering of the deficit and the concomitant strengthening of the dollar which such a move would imply. But this would not occur. Basic math tells us that 0 + 0 = 0. The deficit would be right where it was. And we'd be even more fucked than we were before, because we'd have no way to hammer away at it.

What do you guys think will happen when, as would inevitably occur, our economy is severely weakened by foreign disinvestment, AND we have no public programs with which to battle the hardships that would ensue? Just think about it for a moment, although I know that thinking is not ya'all's strong suit.

And all of this nonsensical talk about how I want "more government in our lives"? Give me a fucking break. You guys sound like you're at a kindergarten level of understanding how government works. Try to put together the implications of your lunatic ideas:

Cutting federal regulatory commissions such as the FCC, the SEC and the EPA? You would then see even more radical corporate domination of the media, business practices and environmental destruction. Take away the restraints that exist, and you take us back to the 19th century, when minimum wages didn't exist, people's health was destroyed by pollutants, and the stock market was allowed to rage out of control.

Doing away with public education? That's a genius notion. Then we'd have the top one percent of our population sending their kids to religious preparatory schools while the other 99 percent had to have their kids work for a living to support the family, which is now hamstrung by the fact that food is more expensive (thanks to the relinquishing of price control mechanisms), basic services such as electricity, running water, the quality of the roads, public legal defense, etc. are either too expensive or unobtainable, and the jobs at which they work pay them three bucks an hour and feature horrible safety regulations. Sounds like a pretty world, doesn't it.

Again, you guys are talking out of your asses. You and all of Ron Paul's supporters live in a fantasy world that has no connection to real world exigencies.



Well, youve said a lot of things that are easily contested here, but Im way too tired to argue right now. Please wait for a better response.

Paul wants education to be done at the state level, not federal or a complete elimination (he may want a complete elimination, but this wouldnt happen off the bat - plus this would drive the price of school WAY WAY WAY down making it affordable)

Budget deficit is at $9 trillion right now. Trade deficit is not necessarily a bad thing; Ill crack out my economics book for this better response tomorrow.

Income taxes are no way to balance the deficit. They make up 33% of the federal spending budget. From '96 to '00, I think it was 60% of USA corporations paid no income tax, and 70% of foreign based firms in the USA paid no income tax. Raise taxes all you want; they'll just hire more accountants to deduct everything to 0. Even Nader was against the federal income tax for this reason.

This is a good argument for a flat tax rate. People in lower/middle class will pay about the same or less than before (and in very low bracket, have no tax), while the rich cant just deduct everything away. People would be taxed less, and we would have more money (I forget the exact numbers, Ill get back to you on this). Another way to change the current system that we have (Paul doesnt support this; its just an idea).

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

47
Skronk wrote:
NerblyBear wrote:......


Give you a break? For what? If you can't understand that every major problem we have in this country, from illegal wiretapping, to an illegal war, and war on the underclass, is brought on by more government, maybe you need to look around. Public education's worked out so damned well, hasn't it? That's why America's the top country in education, right? Oh wait.

Oh wait, all the countries that out-school us have more, not less, public education investment.

You really the FCC to regulate something as worthless as television? I can't believe you're arguing for the censors. Radical corporate domination of the media won't end because the government gets involved, it'll only further it, like it has already.

Oh wait, all the countries with robust criticism of government in broadcast have more, not less, public investment in broadcast.

So, explain to me, what would more government do in a positive sense, that it couldn't or wouldn't do now? I'm genuinely interested.

All the things it ought to be doing now, except that retards are afraid of the government doing things it does well, like the mail, telephony, medicine, broadcast and education. They see no farther than law enforcement and defense, and even in that they tolerate psychotic private mafias and mercenaries like Blackwater.

I would like a robust, well-funded government that is comfortable enough in its role that it doesn't treat its citizenry like a hostile race that needs to be lied to and intimidated.

How about them apples.
steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
Quicumque quattuor feles possidet insanus est.

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

48
Sadly, that would never happen. The way things are going, the average person will face more hostility, and dishonesty as long as the government functions the way it does. I don't think any politician or party could reverse it.

But my apples are sour.
Marsupialized wrote:I want a piano made out of jello.
It's the only way I'll be able to achieve the sound I hear in my head.

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

49
Rick Reuben wrote:They are supporting 'more government' of the variety that lives only in theory


.. And in France, Germany, Spain, Great Britain, Belgium, Holland, Portugal, etc, etc, etc.

Not that I would ever hold these governments up as ideal - they all have their faults.

Fact of the matter is though, what all these countries have in common are well-funded governments with extensive legislative powers.

And what all these countries have in common are higher tax rates than the US; extensive socialised health care that more or less works and is far better than anything availably publicly in the US; public education that outscores the US; support systems for the unemployed, disabled, needy far in advance of anything in the US; (with the exception on the UK) free university education; longer statutory holiday rights; (with the exception of Portugal) reasonable scope for a woman to choose whether to have a baby or not; a currency that is currently stronger than the US dollar.

That's what more government can bring.

To restate: I'm not holding any of these countries' governments up as perfect models. But I know where I'd rather bring up my kids.
Rick Reuben wrote:
daniel robert chapman wrote:I think he's gone to bed, Rick.
He went to bed about a decade ago, or whenever he sold his soul to the bankers and the elites.


Image

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

50
Rick Reuben wrote:
big_dave wrote:He's against centralised, state controlled banking. Which is not the same as "the central bank". Which is not the same as "the bankers".

We don't have centralised, state controlled banking, you numbskull!


Jesus Christ, this is what I was pointing out to prove you wrong. Genius.

Rick Reuben wrote:Another complete lie by big_troll. I never mentioned big_troll in any post to this thread before big_troll posted the paste from Ron Paul.


Your name is not Ron Paul. That post was nothing to do with you.

Stop lying, you drunk.


You notice that I like a drink. How long until you start using the computer games and offal angle? Also, that I come from a really small country.

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