I always liked the Cows and Beer 7" better than the s/t lp, but if we are talking full length, I would have to agree, the first Die Kreuzen is one of the best, if not the best, hard core record. My quick list...

Die Kreuzen - s/t
Bad Brains - ROIR and Rock For Light are tied for me
Zero Boys - Vicious Circle

I saw Die Kreuzen when they put out thier first album and played a show at this place called the Cathay De Grande in Hollywood. They were fucking incredible.

I always thought that they were, even back then, a little too weird to be really considered "hardcore". A lot of punk kids I knew had a really hard time getting into them. Me, too. What a atonal cold and inhumanly weird record.

Here are some overlooked little known "third level" cool bands that could be considered hardcore:

The Neos.
the Mecht Mensch seven inch.
that first Tar Babies e.p...what is more brutal then that? What is up with that guitar?

Lastly, I have another equally as old pal of mine that swears that he knew hardcore was going into the toilet when DRI and SSD appeared. Thanks and goodnight.

Also overlooked is the Koro 7", that record is great!

copower wrote:'GI' could qualify around the 'first hardcore' or whatever.
i still just call it punk though.

same with Flippers 'Generic' and Fangs 'Landshark'.
(about the punk thing, not about being the first...)

Generic is stunning. Not sure if I'd call it Hardcore though. Sexbomb certainly ain't

I just found a blog that posts a lot of old hardcore records. check it out, they have the Koro 7", along with the Urban Waste 7" and some other stuff...

http://aniceplacetoraisechildren.blogsp ... chive.html

I think the Germs song Die Kreuzen used to cover was "No God".

Very intense version of an already intense song.

steve wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:I still like the Germs "GI" a lot.

Yeah, great record. Not really hardcore. Hardcore was such a brittle, hidebound format that it took an exceptional band to be both recognizable as hardcore and also great. I wouldn't consider the Germs a hardcore band, but they were great.

They were great, especially when the Blackhearts played all their parts in the studio for them on the recording of GI..

OK, I don't know if that is true, but I have heard this from many reliable sources..

mr.arrison wrote:

steve wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:I still like the Germs "GI" a lot.

Yeah, great record. Not really hardcore. Hardcore was such a brittle, hidebound format that it took an exceptional band to be both recognizable as hardcore and also great. I wouldn't consider the Germs a hardcore band, but they were great.

They were great, especially when the Blackhearts played all their parts in the studio for them on the recording of GI..

OK, I don't know if that is true, but I have heard this from many reliable sources..

I have heard this rumour, but based on the performance I saw when they did the reunion tour, I don't think it's true. I do realize Pat and Don have had plenty of experience since the Germs broke up, but Lorna sounded good as well, and I don't think she was in a band after the Germs broke up.

Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of seeing the Germs at their prime.

I like quite a lot of generic and uninventive music, thus I like a lot of hardcore and punk rock. I own 2 Some Girls LPs. Woop.

I think a lot of the bands Steve would consider second or third tier (judging from his prior post in this thread), are bands that I love. I saw Some Girls live, while it was entertaining, I think they are a pretty awful band on record. Its mostly Wes's voice. He's a great example of a great lyricist who happens to be a shitty singer.