gebo wrote:I think a lot of the bands Steve would consider second or third tier (judging from his prior post in this thread), are bands that I love. I saw Some Girls live, while it was entertaining, I think they are a pretty awful band on record. Its mostly Wes's voice. He's a great example of a great lyricist who happens to be a shitty singer.

Punk rock is about good singers?

You're right probably, I don't really rate Some Girls highly at all, but when I put one of their records on it's fun for however long it lasts.

Mark Hansen wrote:

mr.arrison wrote:

steve wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:I still like the Germs "GI" a lot.

Yeah, great record. Not really hardcore. Hardcore was such a brittle, hidebound format that it took an exceptional band to be both recognizable as hardcore and also great. I wouldn't consider the Germs a hardcore band, but they were great.

They were great, especially when the Blackhearts played all their parts in the studio for them on the recording of GI..

OK, I don't know if that is true, but I have heard this from many reliable sources..

I have heard this rumour, but based on the performance I saw when they did the reunion tour, I don't think it's true. I do realize Pat and Don have had plenty of experience since the Germs broke up, but Lorna sounded good as well, and I don't think she was in a band after the Germs broke up.

Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of seeing the Germs at their prime.

You can with youtube, and after watching these videos I think those rumors are a bunch of utter bullshit. The Other Newest One

first six minutes at the whiskey a go-go

try to ignore darby and listen to the band. it's hard, but I think they're audible enough for you to hear for yourself.

they covered a Germs song

Land Of Treason, too..

Die Krueuzen were truly inspirational. That first lp was pretty much the tombstone for Hardcore.

When Eric couldn't make a show at the 7th Street Entry, I got to sub on drums. That was FUN!

Edit- I'm sure I talked about this somewhere else on the board. Tough titty, you would too if you were allowed the opportunity to put the batterie into the DK beast for a night.

Punk rock is about good singers?

Not good "singers" per say, but there is people who have a good voice for punk/hardcore, and people who dont. Wes's voice always seemed weak to me. I dont mean he couldnt sing on key and shit, I mean his yelling isnt good yelling. [/quote]

Mark Hansen wrote:I almost think of "GI" as the first hardcore record. Maybe it doesn't seem as hardcore because it arose from a band that started as a sloppy, inept mess, albeit a FUN sloppy inept mess. Coming from that beginning, the album was kind of a revelation.

It was a revelation to a lot of people who didn't get what it was. It was far too intelligent for hardcore. Hardcore bands ate up the bait - the Germs swilled a lot of beer, they played really fast. Great, fuckin' badass, right? Most Germs-influenced bands missed the point. In having no traditional training, the Germs had to innovate, thus their songs are unconventional in structure and melody, and Darby's lyrics were just packed with ideas. Not genius, but light years beyond the "TV party, fuck your parents, fuck the world, got the world up my ass, fuck the homos" bands that made up 97% of hardcore.

Best hardcore records, period:
- Die Kreuzen - Die Kreuzen
- Minor Threat - Out Of Step
- Husker Du - Land Speed Record
- Bad Brains - Bad Brains
- Negative Approach - Tied Down

The good stuff that often gets lumped in with hardcore:
- Dead Kennedys - Fresh Fruaodkakld
- Meat Puppets - Meat Puppets (a wierd album if ever there was one)
- The Minutemen - The Punchline (how some folks confuse this with hardcore I'll never understand. I've met plenty who do, though.)
- Dicks - Dicks: 1980-1986

Good luck beyond that. If you manage to listen to an entire D.R.I. record, I care not to meet you. Or T.S.O.L., S.O.A., S.S. Decontrol, or the Cro-Mags for that matter.

DregsInTheCrowd wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:I almost think of "GI" as the first hardcore record. Maybe it doesn't seem as hardcore because it arose from a band that started as a sloppy, inept mess, albeit a FUN sloppy inept mess. Coming from that beginning, the album was kind of a revelation.

It was a revelation to a lot of people who didn't get what it was. It was far too intelligent for hardcore. Hardcore bands ate up the bait - the Germs swilled a lot of beer, they played really fast. Great, fuckin' badass, right? Most Germs-influenced bands missed the point. In having no traditional training, the Germs had to innovate, thus their songs are unconventional in structure and melody, and Darby's lyrics were just packed with ideas. Not genius, but light years beyond the "TV party, fuck your parents, fuck the world, got the world up my ass, fuck the homos" bands that made up 97% of hardcore.

Best hardcore records, period:
- Die Kreuzen - Die Kreuzen
- Minor Threat - Out Of Step
- Husker Du - Land Speed Record
- Bad Brains - Bad Brains
- Negative Approach - Tied Down

The good stuff that often gets lumped in with hardcore:
- Dead Kennedys - Fresh Fruaodkakld
- Meat Puppets - Meat Puppets (a wierd album if ever there was one)
- The Minutemen - The Punchline (how some folks confuse this with hardcore I'll never understand. I've met plenty who do, though.)
- Dicks - Dicks: 1980-1986

Good luck beyond that. If you manage to listen to an entire D.R.I. record, I care not to meet you. Or T.S.O.L., S.O.A., S.S. Decontrol, or the Cro-Mags for that matter.

Hahaha, calm down.

Redline wrote:

they covered a Germs song

Land Of Treason, too..

Die Krueuzen were truly inspirational. That first lp was pretty much the tombstone for Hardcore.

When Eric couldn't make a show at the 7th Street Entry, I got to sub on drums. That was FUN!

Edit- I'm sure I talked about this somewhere else on the board. Tough titty, you would too if you were allowed the opportunity to put the batterie into the DK beast for a night.

I don't know, I don't think I would want a Keith Brammer scowl reminding me when I messed up...

DregsInTheCrowd wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:I almost think of "GI" as the first hardcore record. Maybe it doesn't seem as hardcore because it arose from a band that started as a sloppy, inept mess, albeit a FUN sloppy inept mess. Coming from that beginning, the album was kind of a revelation.

It was a revelation to a lot of people who didn't get what it was. It was far too intelligent for hardcore. Hardcore bands ate up the bait - the Germs swilled a lot of beer, they played really fast. Great, fuckin' badass, right? Most Germs-influenced bands missed the point. In having no traditional training, the Germs had to innovate, thus their songs are unconventional in structure and melody, and Darby's lyrics were just packed with ideas. Not genius, but light years beyond the "TV party, fuck your parents, fuck the world, got the world up my ass, fuck the homos" bands that made up 97% of hardcore.

Best hardcore records, period:
- Die Kreuzen - Die Kreuzen
- Minor Threat - Out Of Step
- Husker Du - Land Speed Record
- Bad Brains - Bad Brains
- Negative Approach - Tied Down

The good stuff that often gets lumped in with hardcore:
- Dead Kennedys - Fresh Fruaodkakld
- Meat Puppets - Meat Puppets (a wierd album if ever there was one)
- The Minutemen - The Punchline (how some folks confuse this with hardcore I'll never understand. I've met plenty who do, though.)
- Dicks - Dicks: 1980-1986

Good luck beyond that. If you manage to listen to an entire D.R.I. record, I care not to meet you. Or T.S.O.L., S.O.A., S.S. Decontrol, or the Cro-Mags for that matter.

I own every one of the records listed above. At the time, I liked most of them. Obviously, I still like some of them, although I haven't listened to most of my hardcore records in 20 years.

I certainly bought records that I hadn't heard. Took quite a few chances, some panned out, some didn't.

My musical tastes certainly encompass a lot more than just hardcore, and always have.

I think the Minutemen get lumped in by some people because, at the time, I certainly knew a lot of people in hardcore bands that liked them, and people who liked hardcore who also liked them, and they often played on the same bills together.

There were certainly people who only listened to hardcore, and nothing else, at that time, but generally, among the more knowledgeable people into music at the time, that wasn't the case.

Redline wrote:

they covered a Germs song

Land Of Treason, too..

You're right, I think it was "Land of Treason", not "No God" that they played, although I still think they played "No God" at some point.

I know I saw Die Kreuzen play every time they came to Chicago at that time. At least 5 or 6 times, maybe more.

I also tend to think of that Germs album as a hardcore punk album, if only because of the super-high speeds and the rollicking, "boom-chick-boom" drumming style.

Someone has already mentioned Husker Du's debut LP. As it stands, the album sounds awful. But if it had been recorded right, that album would absolutely slay/melt and would be in a league with Die Kreuzen and Bad Brains. As it is, you can tell how great those songs were, but all of the life and energy are sucked out of it by the recording. I bet they were incredible live at this point. I'm also a big fan of ZEN ARCADE and its more "hardcore" numbers, like "Beyond the Threshold" and "Pride".

Husker Du: inexplicably, they turned from one of the greatest hardcore punk bands into one of the greatest fuzz-pop bands.

I consider hardcore's musical characteristics to be: (a) bass played very fast with a pick, sometimes so fast as to be strummed like a guitar, (b) nasty, raunchy, wave-of-insects power chord guitar wash, (c) "boom-chick-boom" drumming style, and (d) angry, paranoid, screaming vocals. So, going by that, my top hardcore records:

Minutemen -- "The Punch Line"
Husker Du -- "Land Speed Record"
Minor Threat -- "In My Eyes"
Die Kreuzen -- first LP
Bad Brains -- ROIR cassette and "Rock for Light"
Black Flag -- "Damaged"
Germs -- "GI"
Descendents -- "Milo Goes to College"

Of course, the stylistic framework is not set in stone. For instance, the Minutemen, even in their earlier hardcore days, never had "boom-chick-boom" Ramones-style drumming or power chords.

That's a handful of terrific albums, but, yeah, apart from that, the genre as a whole is a complete dead end. Those bands took the best aspects of it and made them their own. I don't think there have been any bands since that bevy of early-80's groups to really mine that sort of style well, although, say, Lightning Bolt plays music that reminds me very much of the early Bad Brains.