mr.arrison wrote:This Burial stuff is NOT GOOD because it doesn't even pretend to not use samples and tricks from said software's Sound Libraries. It's Reason™ 101, really- and not even using anything noticeably original or interesting. If it is, it's masked with the most overdone filter/effect imaginable, rendering it familiar and nostalgic-in-a-not-good-way.

For clarification: are you saying you don't like music made with a pre-packaged set of samples or you don't like music made from samples in general?

I actually love music that is a bald-faced pastiche of samples if it's done inventively and has a different form and feel from what it was created from. Postmodern visual art has embraced bricolage and simulacrum for some time now, and it’s totally fine with me that people make popular music which makes no bones about its postmodern ethics. I actually find this music more interesting and honest than music which aims to pass as a pure representation of a “real-world” event, but has actually undergone extensive digital manipulation.

Alberto the Frog wrote:Yes, plucking a guitar string is creating sound where there was no sound. Shaping and selecting sounds are (self-evidently) acts that can only be performed on audio that already exists.

The tone of a plucked guitar string is a sound that already exists. The sound of a fretted string is produced from the pre-defined physical properties of the string. By playing a guitar you are not just summoning music from thin air. You are referencing a pre-determined sound bank.

chairman_hall wrote:The tone of a plucked guitar string is a sound that already exists.

It might be a sound that is familiar, but it is not a sound that exists. We are not re-playing a sonic event when we pluck a string, we are part of a sonic event. The sonic zero has become one.

Alberto the Frog wrote:It's not (for me) a question of validity. For me it's simply a question of whether making electronic music (of this sort) is analogous to making rock music. I think it is not. I think that the way electronic music fans insist that the two creative processes are analogous makes them look disingenuous and foolish.

All I can tell you is that the process by which Justice and Daft Punk (yes, gimme the pure pop stuff) make their albums is long and laborious.

In any case, it takes a shit ton of ingenuity and creativity to make an electronic pop album which pleases connoisseurs of that music. Just ask Johnnyshape, who happily gives me flack for liking a group he considers insufficiently innovative.

mr.arrison wrote:

chairman_hall wrote:
Is plucking a guitar string that is fed through an amplifier any different from shaping and selecting a sample on a computer?

I think my criticism with this music we are talking about here is that the origins of the sounds are so obvious- not really treated, not really processed in a way that makes them something that different than what they were when they came with the Reason™ software disks, and certainly not emanating from a "real amp" or even recorded with a 57 and manipulated.

How hard is it to really come up with your own samples?

It's like baking a cake with Betty Crocker™ cake mix as opposed to getting real cake flour, baking powder, milk, fresh eggs, sugar and chocolate and making it yourself.

The box mix shit is weak and the end product will taste exactly as expected. Even if you put M&M's on top and sprinkle some pixie dust on it.

Why would any artist with a modicum of integrity not want to create their own samples?
I don't understand how using pre-packaged loops/sounds-to-go can be even remotely fulfilling.

I agree- there isn't any effort here to personalize his sonic palette. No real quest for anything but the Reason stock.
CRAP

tocharian wrote:For clarification: are you saying you don't like music made with a pre-packaged set of samples or you don't like music made from samples in general?

I don't care for music made with commercial software sample soundbanks. I have no problem with samples if the artist makes them on his/her own or is perversely manipulating samples from someone else, obscuring the familiarity out of them and making something entirely new out of them. With Burial, I'm 99% sure these samples being used are commonplace, out of the box variety, even if what he's doing with them is tasteful.

I love plenty of things with samples- MBV, some Aphex Twin, Eno, Kraftwerk, Boards of Canada, some M83, Pole, Loscil, Oval, Amiina, Vladislav Delay, Chris Herbert, Labradford, etc

It's just these artists aren't giving me the "box mix" version of the baked cake and that's what I appreciate. There's no McDonaldization going on. Nothing any of those artists are creating sound like Reason™ 101. Even Boards of Canada, who are probably the heaviest sampling artists in my list are doing highly visual, moody and fresh things with nostalgic sound clips and vintage analog gear that I have absolutely no problem with. Instead of using the "Glitch/Skratch" library with the software they might be using, they are recording their own samples of twigs on fire and broken glass and making that part of their songs. I like and appreciate this.

I think a plucked guitar string has many many variables to it that affect the way it sounds and I appreciate the artist, who when using samples, has taken the time and care to pluck and record his or her own guitar instead of using the fucking software sound bank, even if the sound is as similar as some people here are arguing (even though every guitar I have ever laid my hands on sounds different to my ears especially when amps, microphones and rooms are involved).

It's the care involved and desire to not be a cookie cutter that I appreciate.

Alberto the Frog wrote:
Earlier EC suggested that 'Burial' could knock out 100 of these records a year, and this was taken (and intended?) as an insult.

It wasn't an insult. It is just how I feel about this music - it is the same way I felt about those rock tunes in Baywatch, each of them sounded like it was written and recorded within an hour by professional musicians. One of them played Typical Rock Riff, another Typical Rock Beat and so on. I only about 4-5 Burial songs but I can't hear anything that would be good/interesting/innovating about them. It sounds like music that was around for years. If that guys spends one week thinking whether he should use a saxophone sample once or twice during a song, so be it, but I say that his music wouldn't be worse or better if would go with three sax samples right away. And there isn't that much going on in his tunes either. I just can't hear anything intelligent or clever there, it is just well put together relitevely easy listening stuff. It could be worse, sure.

On the form/essence thing picked up by Nebrly. Too me it is temtping to consider actual notes and how they are played as the essence and arrangements as form of music, but it is just too simple. However, it somehow works with my feelings towards electronic music - it just lacks essence/heart/guts however it is called. There is nothing there that will resonate in me - I'm talking about the feeling one get when listening to a great piece of music, trying to describe that feeling would be awkward at best and would look most likely stupid. I just can't get excited about the fact that samples used are really clever, or that the textures are really interesting etc. These can be value things in my reception of music, but they need a platform... These are the sauces, but where is goddamn food?
I consider Boards of Canada to be far more interesting than this (Burial) but still there is nothing about their music that moves me. At best it can be interesting, at worse annoying with whole ocean of not engaging music in the middle, and this is where I place Burial, and why I consider him to be Crap (to answer Tim's question).

Another thought about the notes being essence of music: Steve Reich music kills it, as I most definitely feel things when I hear his music, even though it should be "interesting at best" according to what I have just written.

Also, could someone post a link to music from the same/similar genre which is considered bad and not innovating, as opposed to critically acclaimed Burial?

Also, I didn't phrase myself too accurately when I said that dub step is laughable as a genre. All what this is music is worth debate a side, genres are always derivative to music, and threating them seriously is dumb. It just occurred to me that it is laughable that music which sounds like there is nothing new or interesting too me got it's own label, I instantly realized this is how it works everywhere.

tocharian wrote:

Alberto the Frog wrote:
All I can tell you is that the process by which Justice and Daft Punk (yes, gimme the pure pop stuff) make their albums is long and laborious.

Sure, same thing can be said of 808 State, but the end product is still Bo-ring garbage. (Unless you are shaking booty at a club I guess)

In the case of Justice, I don't know them well, but the video someone posted on here about them makes them look too hip and douchey for their own good, not even as funny as Chromeo for christ's sake.

Alberto the Frog wrote:

chairman_hall wrote:The tone of a plucked guitar string is a sound that already exists.

It might be a sound that is familiar, but it is not a sound that exists. We are not re-playing a sonic event when we pluck a string, we are part of a sonic event. The sonic zero has become one.

Cool how you just summed up half of what this thread is arguing over in one sentence..

On pre-made samples vs creating your own (not directed at anyone in particular): a good sample is a good sample no matter where it came from. (built in library or not) If you have a good sample that works perfectly, use it!! Oh wait.. you want to have artistic credibility? Because you're going to be famous and you don't want people to make fun of you on message boards? Same thing with presets. Being anal about this kind of thing is a barrier to creativity. It just adds more cerebral detachment from the sonic event. Hell, on Tour De France (Kraftwerk) there is a whole song practically based on a built in Pro-53 preset...

mr.arrison wrote:In the case of Justice, I don't know them well, but the video someone posted on here about them makes them look too hip and douchey for their own good, not even as funny as Chromeo for christ's sake.

Well, I don't know if that's enough to go on. I'd listen to the whole album. IMHO it's very good! It's not meant to be high art or anything...