Andrew. wrote:

Boombats wrote:Yadda yadda yadda, your pedantism is great in the theoretical world, but you can not simply think those trains out of existence.

This is lazy. Nothing I wrote discounts a ramping up of the national security state, or denies the machinations of KBR, Blackwater, the existence of these contracts, etc. And FWIW, wouldn't trains with shackles designed for the deportation of "all removable aliens" be just the ticket for Ron Paul and his Liberty Militias to round up the 12 million undocumented immigrants he and Lou Dobbs spend so much time vilifying? Honestly.

Quite. I was wondering how all this fitted neatly with Rick's anti-immigration/illegal-alien crusade. A quick perusal of the internet shows that the plan was a contingency originally drawn up to allow for the deportation of refugees in the event of a mass exodus from Mexico.

Rick Rueben wrote:What a shame. Bring on the Endgame. Sounds spectacular.

Willing on the apocalypse? You're our very own White Knight.

Dill wrote:At least a theory which posits someone, scapegoat or not, as the cause, is a theory which provides some hope.

The provision of hope is not a measure of quality. In fact, the easier a solution offered by a theory on the state of the world, the more sceptical I am about it. This positing of a small number of individuals as the cause of the bad things in the world, whose removal would make everything ok, is a comforting thought, and a mythical one. This turns politics and economics into an episode of "The Untouchables".

The current form of capitalism is embedded, ubiquitous and seemingly unmovable. This can be depressing. This does not mean that one cannot challenge it. Which people are, in a multiplicity of small ways.

Regarding the prison trains, they sound disgusting. And they sound to me like the type of vehicle they'd use for immigrants.

Edit for appallingly laze use of the word "chimerical" and corrective explanation.

sparky wrote:The provision of hope is not a measure of quality.

I agree. That's a good point.
I am not really endorsing any specific position. But I often hear critics of so called conspiracy theory say that such ideas are harmful because they make people feel helpless and powerless.
Whereas it seems to me that the idea of an economic system which has grown out of the control of the actors subject to it has got to be an even more crushing thought. I understand that people around the world are actively trying to change capitalism, regulate it and so on, but what are the ideas driving them? Are they moved to act by an understanding of international trade laws, or by the feeling that the US is out to exploit them, that the game is rigged, that there is an enemy with a face, not structure of ideas, they are working against?

Boombats wrote:Sure my respnse was lazy- I'm on the internet, not the classroom.

If all you expect to give and receive is thoughtless, unsubstantiated information "on the internet," you're not eking out a persuasive position for anything you say. Why even bother to engage me or anyone else if all you expect are lazy opinions?

Boombats wrote: I am not standing behind the conspiracy theories you are straw-manning, I'm regarding the actual issue which is "why are there fucking prison trains in America?" You are puffing up over conspiracy theorists unnecessarily. The issue is "why are there fucking prison trains in America?"

The issue is also how Rick - perhaps the board's most dominating poster - chooses to link a plan principally designed for rounding up illegal immigrants to his grand NWO conspiracy theories, on one hand, and devotes hundreds of posts to propping up a xenophobic and demonstrably racist, right-wing populist figure like Ron Paul (who would hardly be mentioned here if not for Rick) as a bulwark against unjust state power, on the other.

You know, seeing as these trains are part of a radical immigrant deportation scheme and a big plank in Ron Paul's platform is rounding up every illegal Chicano in the country - there's a connection (and some dissonance in Rick's information) worth noting.

Ron Paul's politics are cut from exactly the same cloth as the scapegoating, xenophobic patriotism that is a hallmark of American conspiracy theories throughout the last century. My post addressed this and put it in context.

Rick's politics are drop-dead predictable in terms of the historical discourse of American conspiracy theorizing. And when he frames a story related to disturbing immigration provisions as part and parcel of his greater commitments to the broader conspiracy discourse I addressed (which isn't a straw man since it describes Rick's views accurately), the history of that discourse and the political vision it endorses is absolutely relevant.

Boombats wrote:Why are there prison trains in America? Please don't mention Ron Paul again or I shall barf.

Cranius wrote:A quick perusal of the internet shows that the plan was a contingency originally drawn up to allow for the deportation of refugees in the event of a mass exodus from Mexico.

Quite.

Significantly, both the KBR contract and the ENDGAME plan are open-ended. The contract calls for a response to "an emergency influx of immigrants, or to support the rapid development of new programs" in the event of other emergencies, such as "a natural disaster." "New programs" is of course a term with no precise limitation. So, in the current administration, is ENDGAME's goal of removing "potential terrorists."

The line separating conspiracy theories from reality can sometimes be pretty thin. In order to eliminate such theorizing, which some people consider a good idea, it's going to take a civilization more at peace with itself than ours is or is ever likely to become.
The history of conflict over water fluoridation stretches back to world war 2. It is rare to find this style of debate in such a specialized policy. What makes it interesting is that the "industry" has had over sixty years in which to respond directly to the theorists. The amount of time and money that the fluoridationist business interests have invested in the fight is staggering. Yet every generation of dentists regularly turns out three or four or five very highly placed spokesmen who become turncoats. Every decade a few more studies uncovering the damage fluoride can cause come floating up out of the universities. Angry citizens don't really care. If the problem attracts their attention at all, they end up on the side of the rhetorical style they feel most comfortable in. The issue to address is the number of angry citizens. People say "Hitler was voted into office" as if such news should surprise us.

well this is certainly one of the most one-sided battles of wits I've ever seen

Rick, you're in the wrong line of work. I'd love to see some of the above dialog on Broadway or something. Hell I'd even see a musical based on this. Just write the scripts by taking random snippets of your online battles. Get to it, this shit is not going to organize itself.

Hey, isn't there a thread for this stuff somewhere else?

Rick Reuben wrote:

scott wrote:well this is certainly one of the most one-sided battles of wits I've ever seen

Can you point me to quotes where Andrew supports or rejects the official version of either 9/11 or JFK?

Rick, can you please direct me to the thread in which you agree to either:

a. Go fuck your mum.

b. Go hang yourself.

I've searched and searched, but can't seem to locate it.

Rick Reuben wrote:...But he will not answer those question...pussy robot.

or

c. Bisect your own penis.