Linus Van Pelt wrote:It almost seems like you don't consider black southerners to be real southerners. You've demonstrated fairly effectively that about 80% of (voting) white Alabamans are backward racists. That still doesn't negate the fact that nearly 50% of (voting) Alabamans voted against this amendment.

I do consider them to be real - and indefinitely outnumbered. I mean, it doesn't really matter how they vote if the white population - the solid majority - are almost all voting the other way.

This thread makes me pretty sad.

I feel like I'm being ...I dont know what I feel like, but it sucks. On one hand, I want to tell you guys "Its really not as bad as you think" but on the other hand, I know if I were you guys, I'd be doing the exact same thing.

The fact is, in some places, it IS as bad as you think. I live in the 'burbs. The racism isnt as rampant as you might have been led to believe, at least from urban and sub-urban whites. Honestly, I get more nasty looks walking down the street in West End than blacks would walking around in my neighborhood. But, out towards Macon, basically the further south you go, it gets increasingly more 'scary'. We always like to say, 30 miles outside Atlanta's perimeter, you're no longer in Georgia, you're in GEOWJUH. I personally havent run in to any blatant rascism out there, everyone seems to be pretty nice, but then again, I am white.

Yes, the public schools out here are fucking piss poor. I think any student or parent with a decent head on their shoulders knows this.

I fucking hate rednecks. It sucks that everyone in my family is a redneck. (Well, I dont think my parents are, but I'm sure some would ignorantly disagree.) The thing is, I, unlike you guys, am in the position to pass judgement on an individual basis instead of labeling all southerners (except a few in the city) as backwards, idiotic, scum of the earth. I know a good amount of people that I HEAVILY disagree with politically and socially speaking, but that doesnt mean they're bad, evil people, it doesnt mean their idea of a great saturday night is "draggin that nigger girl b'hind the truck YEEHAH!" I can't speak for anywhere outside of suburban Atlanta. I love my family even though their poor, politically-misguided rednecks. They're good, honest people.

I dont think I am ashamed to live in the south. I like it here. Its pretty. People are nice to each other. I do wish it was better. There ARE hordes of bible-thumping, backward-thinking, dirty, incestuous, pig-fucking racist cock-suckers out here, but they are definetly in the minority.






....honestly, I dont know what im trying to say with this post... your complaints about the south are by no means unjustified, i just wish it wasnt generalized so much. i dunno...

sorry for taking up space

unarmedman wrote:please, please, please: don't make this about christians

if they call themselves christians, then they will be judged by that as well. they are not christians; not even close.

Who are you to define their faith? I take people at their word regarding what they believe. You say you're a christian but they're not. I believe you both about what you say you are.

You are uncomfortable with what some of your fellow christians do and say. This much is laudable. They are christians if they say they are, and we have every right to form opinions about self-declared christians, their behavior, their voting, their ideas and their history without a decoder ring.

I have great friends who are christians. I value the teachings of Jesus, even the less popular ones regarding forgiveness and reservation of judgement and charity and humility and contentment. I am not a christian.

But I think the christian political bloc is a blight on our country. I think the southern evangelical strain of the christian voting bloc is particularly reprehensible, given its history.

Seriously, if the one thing a bunch of assholes have in common is that they're all self-declared christians, and every specific asshole I can think of at the moment is a self-declared christian, then I have a basis to suspect a link between the assholes and christians.

That there are a few examples to the contrary invites all christians to demonstrate to me that they are not assholes, for on this point I have an open mind. That said, suerly they must see these assholes all around them at their christian meetings, no? So they choose to spend their time in the company of assholes, no? So they choose to declare their commonality with these assholes, no?

If I were a christian, I would be as ashamed as if I were born into a mafia family. I would disassociate myself from the flock in a heartbeat. I wouldn't say "they're not christians," I would say "those christians over there, those guys are assholes, and I'm not one of them."

As a southerner, I'm right there with wiggins. It's so hard to really, really like the place you're from, when you feel like you aren't supposed to because of the political stigma attached. A lot of characteristics of the south and of southern people feel like "home" to me, despite the fact that I know there are serious problems (granted, Virginia is not the "deep" south).

I do sometimes feel like race relations amongst younger people down here are getting better though, any other southerners see this? Maybe once the old guard finally dies off, things will get better?

Oh, and my sig line is only a slight exaggeration: Jerry Falwell lives a few houses over from me. He lives in a huge mansion in the middle of a very normal, middle-class neighborhood. I've honestly never even seen him.

wiggins wrote:I love my family even though their poor, politically-misguided rednecks. They're good, honest people.

See, I can't buy this line of reasoning. I too have a lot of trash in my family. My brother dropped out of high school and apparently his career plans were to get food stamps and knock a lot of 17 year olds up. I love him, because he is part of my family.

But at no point do I feel compelled to take the next step and say "He's a good, honest man, he's just blah blah etc etc"

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. I love my brother, but he is a piece of shit retard. And my attitude is that he has the ability to stop being a piece of shit retard. And he needs to do so. I find that, however cold and cruel, to be a much more easily defensible attitude than saying "Well, it's his lifestyle, it's his culture, I am bound to respect it."

No. When someone is acting like a moron, I find it perfectly acceptable to say "Knock it off, stop acting like a moron." The fact that this person is also nice, good, honest, etc, whatever doesn't factor into the equation on this level.

run around on fire wrote:I do sometimes feel like race relations amongst younger people down here are getting better though, any other southerners see this? Maybe once the old guard finally dies off, things will get better?

I definetly feel its getting better. Most of the racism I see around here is from older (age 50+) people.

steve wrote:If I were a christian, I would be as ashamed as if I were born into a mafia family. I would disassociate myself from the flock in a heartbeat. I wouldn't say "they're not christians," I would say "those christians over there, those guys are assholes, and I'm not one of them."

Steve, as always, you speak with wisdom and an acute articulation that is second to none. Perhaps the Unarmed Man and I are too young find the right words to properly articulate our disgust with these scum. I feel that by our personal definition of christianity, these people dont fit in, that we're right and they're wrong, but I agree with you, we have no business defining their faith. I think its natural for non-athiests like me, that wish christians had a better name, to say "oh those assholes, they're not christians - dont believe them when they say that, they dont know what theyre talking about" but often what is natural is not the best thing to say or do.

You must understand, being in our position is frustrating. We are outnumbered, as you said in your post. I dont think I should have to be ashamed to admit that I believe in god, but because of these people, I am. I think Unarmed Man said what he said out of frustration, out of being pidgeonholed, or rather, thats what would have been my excuse.

Who are you to define their faith? I take people at their word regarding what they believe. You say you're a christian but they're not. I believe you both about what you say you are.

If you say you're a table, am I just supposed to take yr word for it? That yr a table?

If I were a christian, I would be as ashamed as if I were born into a mafia family. I would disassociate myself from the flock in a heartbeat. I wouldn't say "they're not christians," I would say "those christians over there, those guys are assholes, and I'm not one of them."

If you were a Christian, I'd doubt that. Maybe if you were a jew... but with Jesus there's that whole conversion, turn yr cheek, thing. You'd probably be part of a housewives network dedicated to preserving or making way for *the good in you.* Loosen up, bro. We're here for ya.

As for racism in general. I can't be the only one who isn't white on this board. You hear some bullshit every single day of your life. Sometimes I don't go out at all cause I'm just not in the mood to hear something foul by a guy with a giant "cracker" tatt on his back. Nasty language ain't exactly the best but it exists and I certainly wouldn't vaporize every person on earth who's ignorantly made themselves feel better by putting someone down for no reason. Infact, they could probably use a little love from Steve's Christian Reading Circle.

As for the South. Fuck that. The South may be dirty, and it's hard to keep smells contained in the heat, but the south wasn't really mechanized, ok, industrialized the way the north was... We're talking about poor folk who got cheap land (not all, but most), no education (in tolerance nor physics) and a lil' bit of inbreeding here n' there. That's some sad ass shit! It's the whole class-issue thing, these white folks are being bamboozeled like anyone else, forcing an identity on themselves cause otherwise they might not have one -- and that's what everyone wants, right? If yr gonna wade through a lot of black stereotypes (fact is, most of "the criminals" I've known have been black) and break out with compassion, knowing (or suddenly inspired by a PBS special) that they have some history to cut through, then do me a favor and make that compassion there universal. Otherwise I don't give a shit and I won't be donating anything to NPR this year.

ginandtacos.com wrote:See, I can't buy this line of reasoning. I too have a lot of trash in my family. My brother dropped out of high school and apparently his career plans were to get food stamps and knock a lot of 17 year olds up. I love him, because he is part of my family.

But at no point do I feel compelled to take the next step and say "He's a good, honest man, he's just blah blah etc etc"

Yeah, but the people in my family are good, honest people. The look like good, honest people, they squawk like good honest people.

steve wrote:Who are you to define their faith? I take people at their word regarding what they believe. You say you're a christian but they're not. I believe you both about what you say you are.

i see what you are saying here: my error that you point out is one that has frustrated me in many christians, and good ones at that. you're right - it is not my place to define their faith, or judge them by it. that is Biblical, and i can accept that.

i think wiggins might have explained it somewhat; being someone that believes in God and is not of the racist/pro-segregationist blend, i am ashamed at how these people have reconciled racism and God. But I'm not looking to deny it, though i wish i could successfully do so. I'm looking to separate in other peoples' minds the idea that this represents the Bible, or the teachings of Jesus. That's more what i meant.

When things like this happen, it taints the general view of christianity as being somehow bigoted or racist, when in fact these acts have nothing to do with christianity. that's when others will commit the fallacy of composition. but not without good reason - some who profess Christ as their savior are really messed up! i mean, when you think about it in this sense, christianity is a made up word. Christ didn't say "become christians" he said "take up your cross and follow me".

i'm glad i was able to expand on my original thoughts a bit more. if i didn't make sense somewhere let me know and ill try harder.

take care.

does mdc stand for "millions of dead christians" or "milllions of dead cops". i've never heard them but work mate wears their shirts and talks about them a lot.