Shit.
And I was getting all my good odor-related juvenile insults ready. Oh well. It was a good idea, until I got greedy.
Artist: Frank Zappa
102We still haven't heard, specifically, what albums (of the ones I have defined as very good) are crap. I'm still convinced, due to what I read, and that many people think there is a Zappa song called "yellow snow", that many people who voted crap have heard his popular stuff... Mentions of "Valley Girls" etc. are evidence of this. If you really like "Valley Girls" better than "Big Swifty", I can't tell you you're wrong... But I'm betting dollars to doughnuts that you haven't heard "Big Swifty" (the LP version on Waka/Jawaka).
Come on placeholder... You've mentioned "Broadway the Hardway", and "hippy" stuff he did, and obscene stuff he did. None of this is representative of his good stuff, and there's a whole lot of it. Can you maybe talk specifically about the material, instead of putting forth even more false accusations... Now I've been criticizing the music you like? Sorry. I said I prefer complicated music with thought and effort, and I'm not a fan of 3 chord punk bands that can't even play live shows well because their bass player is so fucked up. Like the new Messhuga E.P, the key word is "I". This is my opinion. If you're offended by my opinion, that's fine. But let's not get paranoid here... The walls aren't breathing...
If you go to the Genesis thread, you'll see this same exact dynamic. People seriously think "Genesis" is their first album, and then denounce it as crap. If you aren't familiar with the arists' works, then you shouldn't vote.
You know, if no one had told me that Genesis did great music, I would still think that it's all about "That's All" and crap like that. This is the exact same issue with Zappa. His popular stuff occludes his great works, and other than me and maybe 2 other people, no one has mentioned his material. Why are you avoiding discussion about any of the material I listed? Are you afraid you might have overlooked something? That maybe you were wrong about Zappa? All I know is that everyone who claims to have heard his stuff and just doesn't like it, has not be able to substantiate their argument with any evidence. I reviewed an example, Waka/Jawaka, and explained in detail why it's a great album and not crap. Can anyone on the negative side put together a constructive argument? I have yet to hear one.
It does seem a bit odd to denounce someone as crap, make some vague statements about very bad (and popular) material the artist did, and then persist on this thread with a bunch of bogus accusations about elitism and snobbery... and continue to avoid any discussion of his material. There's a lot of red herrings here, and no matter what I do to try to have some sort of discussion of his material, it's not happening... this is obviously because people have not heard much of his material. Maybe they had to endure some Project/Object crap while their hippy "friend" was weighing out an 1/8th, and think this is indicative of Zappa. Prove me wrong. Explain, specifically, what elements of Zappa's good stuff is crap. I've defined what I think this material is. Now point out why it is crap. If you contend that people have heard his good stuff, and still think it's crap, then how come no one can explain this?
If you vote crap, you should at least be able to list some songs or albums that are evidence of this. The negative side has lost this debate because they have not provided a shred of evidence. The affirmative side has presented specific evidence of the wholesome goodness of great Zappa material. The poll is still in favor of Zappa not being crap. So where are these stone tablets anyway?
Don Quixote is alive and well... Concoting dragons out of innocuous statements about how you might not like Zappa if you're a dyed in the wool punk. And it continues. It's much easier to avoid a topic you're not knowledgeable of and try to discredit the opposition on false accusations. The GOP needs you! Here are my three main arguments for Zappa:
1. He has a yuge amount of very amazing music that has influenced music you listen to, whether you like it or not.
2. It is obvious that the people who *persist* with attacks on Zappa haven't heard one of his good albums. Yes, some people have claimed to have heard these, but for some reason, lack the mental faculties to discuss these in any sort of detail. Why does "The Yellow Shark" suck? Please tell me, because I really want to know... Maybe you'll convert me into disliking Zappa, but I don't think so. I don't see any specific discussion of his material, other than what I have presented. If people don't know, fine. But there is nothing more irritating than someone who says they know something, and they bullshit their way around it. So far, that's what the negative case is about.
It's like judging Nirvana by "Nevermind". It's like judging Genesis by "Genesis" (which, if you read that thread, it's obvious the crappers haven't heard their good stuff either... Some have and don't like it, and that's fine. Just don't be lazy and attack people when you don't know their material!)
3. Groups like Ensemble Modern and Other Minds have dedicated a lot of time and energy to preserving and promoting the great works of Frank Zappa. Long after people have forgotten who "Hoodie and the Wallet Chains" are, people will still be playing, studying, and enjoying Zappa compositions... He will be remembered.
In conclusion, can we please stop the punditry and start talking about the material? No one has touched my contention that Waka/Jawaka is a great album. Since no one has mentioned this, you must agree it is a great album, I guess...
I would like to know, specifically, what albums are crap and why. This is not too much to ask. I'm not trying to change people's minds. I'm trying to figure out if some people have really heard any of his good stuff, or if they're bullshitting on this. From what I have seen, people who say they have heard his stuff have been mentioning bad albums...
Come on placeholder... You've mentioned "Broadway the Hardway", and "hippy" stuff he did, and obscene stuff he did. None of this is representative of his good stuff, and there's a whole lot of it. Can you maybe talk specifically about the material, instead of putting forth even more false accusations... Now I've been criticizing the music you like? Sorry. I said I prefer complicated music with thought and effort, and I'm not a fan of 3 chord punk bands that can't even play live shows well because their bass player is so fucked up. Like the new Messhuga E.P, the key word is "I". This is my opinion. If you're offended by my opinion, that's fine. But let's not get paranoid here... The walls aren't breathing...
If you go to the Genesis thread, you'll see this same exact dynamic. People seriously think "Genesis" is their first album, and then denounce it as crap. If you aren't familiar with the arists' works, then you shouldn't vote.
You know, if no one had told me that Genesis did great music, I would still think that it's all about "That's All" and crap like that. This is the exact same issue with Zappa. His popular stuff occludes his great works, and other than me and maybe 2 other people, no one has mentioned his material. Why are you avoiding discussion about any of the material I listed? Are you afraid you might have overlooked something? That maybe you were wrong about Zappa? All I know is that everyone who claims to have heard his stuff and just doesn't like it, has not be able to substantiate their argument with any evidence. I reviewed an example, Waka/Jawaka, and explained in detail why it's a great album and not crap. Can anyone on the negative side put together a constructive argument? I have yet to hear one.
It does seem a bit odd to denounce someone as crap, make some vague statements about very bad (and popular) material the artist did, and then persist on this thread with a bunch of bogus accusations about elitism and snobbery... and continue to avoid any discussion of his material. There's a lot of red herrings here, and no matter what I do to try to have some sort of discussion of his material, it's not happening... this is obviously because people have not heard much of his material. Maybe they had to endure some Project/Object crap while their hippy "friend" was weighing out an 1/8th, and think this is indicative of Zappa. Prove me wrong. Explain, specifically, what elements of Zappa's good stuff is crap. I've defined what I think this material is. Now point out why it is crap. If you contend that people have heard his good stuff, and still think it's crap, then how come no one can explain this?
If you vote crap, you should at least be able to list some songs or albums that are evidence of this. The negative side has lost this debate because they have not provided a shred of evidence. The affirmative side has presented specific evidence of the wholesome goodness of great Zappa material. The poll is still in favor of Zappa not being crap. So where are these stone tablets anyway?
Don Quixote is alive and well... Concoting dragons out of innocuous statements about how you might not like Zappa if you're a dyed in the wool punk. And it continues. It's much easier to avoid a topic you're not knowledgeable of and try to discredit the opposition on false accusations. The GOP needs you! Here are my three main arguments for Zappa:
1. He has a yuge amount of very amazing music that has influenced music you listen to, whether you like it or not.
2. It is obvious that the people who *persist* with attacks on Zappa haven't heard one of his good albums. Yes, some people have claimed to have heard these, but for some reason, lack the mental faculties to discuss these in any sort of detail. Why does "The Yellow Shark" suck? Please tell me, because I really want to know... Maybe you'll convert me into disliking Zappa, but I don't think so. I don't see any specific discussion of his material, other than what I have presented. If people don't know, fine. But there is nothing more irritating than someone who says they know something, and they bullshit their way around it. So far, that's what the negative case is about.
It's like judging Nirvana by "Nevermind". It's like judging Genesis by "Genesis" (which, if you read that thread, it's obvious the crappers haven't heard their good stuff either... Some have and don't like it, and that's fine. Just don't be lazy and attack people when you don't know their material!)
3. Groups like Ensemble Modern and Other Minds have dedicated a lot of time and energy to preserving and promoting the great works of Frank Zappa. Long after people have forgotten who "Hoodie and the Wallet Chains" are, people will still be playing, studying, and enjoying Zappa compositions... He will be remembered.
In conclusion, can we please stop the punditry and start talking about the material? No one has touched my contention that Waka/Jawaka is a great album. Since no one has mentioned this, you must agree it is a great album, I guess...
I would like to know, specifically, what albums are crap and why. This is not too much to ask. I'm not trying to change people's minds. I'm trying to figure out if some people have really heard any of his good stuff, or if they're bullshitting on this. From what I have seen, people who say they have heard his stuff have been mentioning bad albums...
Artist: Frank Zappa
103But good lord, the preaching here! Think of it this way - if somebody's gay, it's not that they just need to meet the right girl. Or if somebody hates dogs, you don't say, "Well, what about cocker spaniels? What about standard poodles? What about bichons frises?" And if somebody doesn't like Zappa, it's not that they just need to hear the right song.
It's not that they have to hear the right song. It's that some are obviously ignorant of 20 or so albums that are very good, and there is a refusal to discuss any of this material.
Adjusting your analogy, this is more like someone who has only seen a Daushund, and this dog bit them on the ankle, and this person now hates all dogs because this person has not experienced any other dogs.
Ok, I gotta go running... Let's see if anyone can figure out how to discuss Zappa's music. I did, and it seems to be the only thing I've said that's been ignored. The more I bring it up, the more it gets ignored. "Wot Gorilla?"
Artist: Frank Zappa
104Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:We still haven't heard, specifically, what albums (of the ones I have defined as very good) are crap. I'm still convinced, due to what I read, and that many people think there is a Zappa song called "yellow snow", that many people who voted crap have heard his popular stuff... Mentions of "Valley Girls" etc. are evidence of this. If you really like "Valley Girls" better than "Big Swifty", I can't tell you you're wrong... But I'm betting dollars to doughnuts that you haven't heard "Big Swifty" (the LP version on Waka/Jawaka).
Come on placeholder... You've mentioned "Broadway the Hardway", and "hippy" stuff he did, and obscene stuff he did. None of this is representative of his good stuff, and there's a whole lot of it. Can you maybe talk specifically about the material, instead of putting forth even more false accusations... Now I've been criticizing the music you like? Sorry. I said I prefer complicated music with thought and effort, and I'm not a fan of 3 chord punk bands that can't even play live shows well because their bass player is so fucked up. Like the new Messhuga E.P, the key word is "I". This is my opinion. If you're offended by my opinion, that's fine. But let's not get paranoid here... The walls aren't breathing...
If you go to the Genesis thread, you'll see this same exact dynamic. People seriously think "Genesis" is their first album, and then denounce it as crap. If you aren't familiar with the arists' works, then you shouldn't vote.
You know, if no one had told me that Genesis did great music, I would still think that it's all about "That's All" and crap like that. This is the exact same issue with Zappa. His popular stuff occludes his great works, and other than me and maybe 2 other people, no one has mentioned his material. Why are you avoiding discussion about any of the material I listed? Are you afraid you might have overlooked something? That maybe you were wrong about Zappa? All I know is that everyone who claims to have heard his stuff and just doesn't like it, has not be able to substantiate their argument with any evidence. I reviewed an example, Waka/Jawaka, and explained in detail why it's a great album and not crap. Can anyone on the negative side put together a constructive argument? I have yet to hear one.
It does seem a bit odd to denounce someone as crap, make some vague statements about very bad (and popular) material the artist did, and then persist on this thread with a bunch of bogus accusations about elitism and snobbery... and continue to avoid any discussion of his material. There's a lot of red herrings here, and no matter what I do to try to have some sort of discussion of his material, it's not happening... this is obviously because people have not heard much of his material. Maybe they had to endure some Project/Object crap while their hippy "friend" was weighing out an 1/8th, and think this is indicative of Zappa. Prove me wrong. Explain, specifically, what elements of Zappa's good stuff is crap. I've defined what I think this material is. Now point out why it is crap. If you contend that people have heard his good stuff, and still think it's crap, then how come no one can explain this?
If you vote crap, you should at least be able to list some songs or albums that are evidence of this. The negative side has lost this debate because they have not provided a shred of evidence. The affirmative side has presented specific evidence of the wholesome goodness of great Zappa material. The poll is still in favor of Zappa not being crap. So where are these stone tablets anyway?
Don Quixote is alive and well... Concoting dragons out of innocuous statements about how you might not like Zappa if you're a dyed in the wool punk. And it continues. It's much easier to avoid a topic you're not knowledgeable of and try to discredit the opposition on false accusations. The GOP needs you! Here are my three main arguments for Zappa:
1. He has a yuge amount of very amazing music that has influenced music you listen to, whether you like it or not.
2. It is obvious that the people who *persist* with attacks on Zappa haven't heard one of his good albums. Yes, some people have claimed to have heard these, but for some reason, lack the mental faculties to discuss these in any sort of detail. Why does "The Yellow Shark" suck? Please tell me, because I really want to know... Maybe you'll convert me into disliking Zappa, but I don't think so. I don't see any specific discussion of his material, other than what I have presented. If people don't know, fine. But there is nothing more irritating than someone who says they know something, and they bullshit their way around it. So far, that's what the negative case is about.
It's like judging Nirvana by "Nevermind". It's like judging Genesis by "Genesis" (which, if you read that thread, it's obvious the crappers haven't heard their good stuff either... Some have and don't like it, and that's fine. Just don't be lazy and attack people when you don't know their material!)
3. Groups like Ensemble Modern and Other Minds have dedicated a lot of time and energy to preserving and promoting the great works of Frank Zappa. Long after people have forgotten who "Hoodie and the Wallet Chains" are, people will still be playing, studying, and enjoying Zappa compositions... He will be remembered.
In conclusion, can we please stop the punditry and start talking about the material? No one has touched my contention that Waka/Jawaka is a great album. Since no one has mentioned this, you must agree it is a great album, I guess...
I would like to know, specifically, what albums are crap and why. This is not too much to ask. I'm not trying to change people's minds. I'm trying to figure out if some people have really heard any of his good stuff, or if they're bullshitting on this. From what I have seen, people who say they have heard his stuff have been mentioning bad albums...
Hey, aren't you that guy who, uh, played keyboards in Fugazi?
-Jeremy
Artist: Frank Zappa
105OK, I listened to Big Swifty - not off Waka/Jawaka, because the place I download music from doesn't have it, but off of Ensemble Ambrosius. I realize your challenge to listen to more Zappa wasn't aimed at me, since I voted NC, but I thought I'd check it out anyway. Well, the site I download from only has 25 Zappa albums. I don't want to put a big investment in this, so can you point out a few albums or songs that are his "good" ones from this list:
2000 » Ensemble Ambrosius- The Zappa Album «
2000 Cucamonga
1999 Muffin Men Plays Zappa
1996 The Lost Episodes
1994 Sonora - An Italian Progressive Music Magazine
1994 Civilization Phase III
1993 Easy Rider Generation '71
1992 Erdbeben In Munchen '80
1992 Donna You Wanna '77
1991 Anyway The Wind Blows '79
1990 The Eyes Of Osaka '76
1989 Electric Aunt Jemima '69
1979 Sheik Yerbouti
1979 L.Shankar - Touch Me There
1978 Lather (Fragments)
1971 Jean-Luc Ponty - King Kong
1970 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
1970 Hot Rats
1970 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
1969 Uncle Meat
1968 We're Only In It For The Money
1968 Lumpy Gravy
1968 Cruising With Ruben & Jets
1967 Absolutely Free
1966 Freak Out
I'd be glad to spend a little time and a little money grabbing a few songs to have a more informed opinion.
I also think you're guilty of the same thing you're talking about - writing off all "3 chord punk bands" because you don't like the bit you've heard is just as bad - no, no, it's worse - than writing off all Zappa for the same reason. I pretty much think the Sex Pistols are shit, but the Modern Lovers LP is as fine a collection of music as anyone ever set down, and those songs average probably 2.5 chords apiece.
2000 » Ensemble Ambrosius- The Zappa Album «
2000 Cucamonga
1999 Muffin Men Plays Zappa
1996 The Lost Episodes
1994 Sonora - An Italian Progressive Music Magazine
1994 Civilization Phase III
1993 Easy Rider Generation '71
1992 Erdbeben In Munchen '80
1992 Donna You Wanna '77
1991 Anyway The Wind Blows '79
1990 The Eyes Of Osaka '76
1989 Electric Aunt Jemima '69
1979 Sheik Yerbouti
1979 L.Shankar - Touch Me There
1978 Lather (Fragments)
1971 Jean-Luc Ponty - King Kong
1970 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
1970 Hot Rats
1970 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
1969 Uncle Meat
1968 We're Only In It For The Money
1968 Lumpy Gravy
1968 Cruising With Ruben & Jets
1967 Absolutely Free
1966 Freak Out
I'd be glad to spend a little time and a little money grabbing a few songs to have a more informed opinion.
I also think you're guilty of the same thing you're talking about - writing off all "3 chord punk bands" because you don't like the bit you've heard is just as bad - no, no, it's worse - than writing off all Zappa for the same reason. I pretty much think the Sex Pistols are shit, but the Modern Lovers LP is as fine a collection of music as anyone ever set down, and those songs average probably 2.5 chords apiece.
Artist: Frank Zappa
106oucheh wrote:Hey, aren't you that guy who, uh, played keyboards in Fugazi?
-Jeremy
You're thinking of Kerble. This guy is in The Dangerous Adventures.
Artist: Frank Zappa
107Linus Van Pelt wrote:oucheh wrote:Hey, aren't you that guy who, uh, played keyboards in Fugazi?
-Jeremy
You're thinking of Kerble. This guy is in The Dangerous Adventures.
Sorry bout that, avatar's are fucking with me again.
-Jeremy
Artist: Frank Zappa
108OK, I'm listening to some Zappa, and boy, it's not that great. Some of it's pretty impressive, which to me is rarely a good thing. I'd much rather hear two guitars*, bass and drums and some guy/gal singing like yelling about something real simple like a car or a love affair than this.... art. If I want to be impressed by music, I don't want to be impressed by how many instruments a dude could write parts for in one composition, or how fast or complex a guitar solo can be, or how clever and wittily nonsensical the lyrics can be, or how well a dude can demonstrate his ability to blend punkfunkdoowopbebophiphopsurfskarastabossanovaCRAP! Impress me by playing the same 3 chords I always hear, and making it sound like a brand new song. Impress me by playing and singing with an intensity that isn't related to speed or volume. Impress me by writing lyrics that make me say not I wish I'd thought of that, but I've been thinking of that all along, and this fucker went and wrote it down. This Zappa, it is soulless, it's art, it's jazz fusion, it's complicated, it's prog, it's everything I don't like about rock and roll, and it's Crap.
Well, WZ, you've told us that we don't have enough exposure to Zappa. I went out and picked a bunch of songs at random from albums you endorsed, gave them a listen, and you were right. I didn't have enough exposure to Zappa. Now I'd like to change my vote.
*one guitar may be replaced with a keyboard or eliminated altogether.
Well, WZ, you've told us that we don't have enough exposure to Zappa. I went out and picked a bunch of songs at random from albums you endorsed, gave them a listen, and you were right. I didn't have enough exposure to Zappa. Now I'd like to change my vote.
*one guitar may be replaced with a keyboard or eliminated altogether.
Artist: Frank Zappa
109Ok bro, i remembered i still had waka/jawaka around and i just listened to it and its a great example of why zappa has not aged well with me.
Big Swifty- It sounds like Bitches Brew era Miles but with no swagger. There are neat parts, but it sounds like jazz fusion, just a few better steps removed from a return to forever lp. those crappy synth solo's always bug me, but these are not as painfull as some bloated 70's fusion. Really, it sounds like a more cleverly arranged Weather Report. I kept thinking, John Mclaughlins masterpiece "Extrapulation" with just sax/gtr,bass, and drums is so much more powerfull and emotionally complex than this, so is late 60's Miles. Jazz fusion is always a crap shoot with everyone usually a loser, and, Zappa is no Jazzer.
Your Mouth- just plain sucks. this is the kind of shit that folks hear and say "Zappa is crap".
It just might be a one shot deal- its a shame that such a majestic pedal steel solo is in the middle of this wretchid turd of a song.
Waka/jawaka - see song #1, but with even more annoying synth solos. I probably would like a lot of fusion if they stayed away from ring modulators and moog tweaking.
The stuff is really not that great. I suppose if i had never heard "Extrapulation", "In A Silent Way", or other great late 60's jazz, i might think this was awesome. But, now all I hear here is a bunch of clever arrangements with great players that seem to be playing music devoid of any real emotion.
In the grand scope of things, it's not bad, but it just furthers my feelings that zappa always seemed to be holding back. Like the great album is just around the corner, but it just never came.
Zappa frustrates me because it could have been so much better.
By the way, I really loved how the drums were recorded. That kick drum sound is something I am after in my recordings. Just awsome. The whole thing is recorded/mixed so spot on.[/url][/i]
Big Swifty- It sounds like Bitches Brew era Miles but with no swagger. There are neat parts, but it sounds like jazz fusion, just a few better steps removed from a return to forever lp. those crappy synth solo's always bug me, but these are not as painfull as some bloated 70's fusion. Really, it sounds like a more cleverly arranged Weather Report. I kept thinking, John Mclaughlins masterpiece "Extrapulation" with just sax/gtr,bass, and drums is so much more powerfull and emotionally complex than this, so is late 60's Miles. Jazz fusion is always a crap shoot with everyone usually a loser, and, Zappa is no Jazzer.
Your Mouth- just plain sucks. this is the kind of shit that folks hear and say "Zappa is crap".
It just might be a one shot deal- its a shame that such a majestic pedal steel solo is in the middle of this wretchid turd of a song.
Waka/jawaka - see song #1, but with even more annoying synth solos. I probably would like a lot of fusion if they stayed away from ring modulators and moog tweaking.
The stuff is really not that great. I suppose if i had never heard "Extrapulation", "In A Silent Way", or other great late 60's jazz, i might think this was awesome. But, now all I hear here is a bunch of clever arrangements with great players that seem to be playing music devoid of any real emotion.
In the grand scope of things, it's not bad, but it just furthers my feelings that zappa always seemed to be holding back. Like the great album is just around the corner, but it just never came.
Zappa frustrates me because it could have been so much better.
By the way, I really loved how the drums were recorded. That kick drum sound is something I am after in my recordings. Just awsome. The whole thing is recorded/mixed so spot on.[/url][/i]
Artist: Frank Zappa
110Oh lord again. This thread has been "GOP-ed". Go for the hat trick and mention Hitler next!
Wernehm_Zackariaah, I do not owe you any "substantiation" of my crap vote in a trivial game on an internet message board, or of my opinion of Zappa's music in general. I could give you a list of the Zappa albums that I've heard and did not like, but I am not going to do that, as it would inevitably result in your telling me what you think is great about these albums (if they are, in fact, albums you like). I am not interested in your opinion, as I have formed my own. I do not owe you a "constructive argument". Again, this is a game of opinion on an internet message board. There are none of these "stone tablets" you keep yammering about.
I am not offended by your opinion. I am offended by the abject stupidity you have continued to display by saying things like this:
It seems like you have a hard time understanding that musical taste cannot be quantified. You think Zappa is a genius. Not everyone does. Every opinion is valid to the person who has it. Further, not everyone who dislikes Zappa's music is "wrong". Has it ever occurred to you that one of the Zappa albums you personally rate as crap could be another Zappa fan's favorite album? I know it sounds crazy, but it is entirely possible.
Again, there is no right or wrong musical taste. I cannot fathom why you have trouble with this.
The negative side has "lost" this silly (but thoroughly entertaining) game in this particular instance because more people have voted NOT CRAP than CRAP. I don't understand why you're so competitive, when nothing is at stake. In the second Crap/Not Crap poll I ever posted, I was one of TWO not crap votes. I was not offended by this, and I did not try to proselytize to all the crap voters. People like and dislike different things for different reasons. No one owes anyone a shred of "evidence" to back up their opinion. You may disagree with it, but, again, musical taste cannot be quantified. Fawn over Zappa's "good stuff" all you like, but I'm still going to think his music is crap.
I'll play along point-by-point, even though it means I'll have to repeat myself yet again...
It looks like everyone here already knows how to discuss Zappa just fine. Maybe not on your terms, but just fine nonetheless.
Let's see if you can figure out how to stop trying to pass your opinions off as facts.
Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:We still haven't heard, specifically, what albums (of the ones I have defined as very good) are crap. I'm still convinced, due to what I read, and that many people think there is a Zappa song called "yellow snow", that many people who voted crap have heard his popular stuff... Mentions of "Valley Girls" etc. are evidence of this. If you really like "Valley Girls" better than "Big Swifty", I can't tell you you're wrong... But I'm betting dollars to doughnuts that you haven't heard "Big Swifty" (the LP version on Waka/Jawaka).
Come on placeholder... You've mentioned "Broadway the Hardway", and "hippy" stuff he did, and obscene stuff he did. None of this is representative of his good stuff, and there's a whole lot of it. Can you maybe talk specifically about the material, instead of putting forth even more false accusations...
Wernehm_Zackariaah, I do not owe you any "substantiation" of my crap vote in a trivial game on an internet message board, or of my opinion of Zappa's music in general. I could give you a list of the Zappa albums that I've heard and did not like, but I am not going to do that, as it would inevitably result in your telling me what you think is great about these albums (if they are, in fact, albums you like). I am not interested in your opinion, as I have formed my own. I do not owe you a "constructive argument". Again, this is a game of opinion on an internet message board. There are none of these "stone tablets" you keep yammering about.
I am not offended by your opinion. I am offended by the abject stupidity you have continued to display by saying things like this:
Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:His popular stuff occludes his great works...
I reviewed an example, Waka/Jawaka, and explained in detail why it's a great album and not crap.
It does seem a bit odd to denounce someone as crap, make some vague statements about very bad (and popular) material the artist did
Explain, specifically, what elements of Zappa's good stuff is crap. I've defined what I think this material is. Now point out why it is crap. If you contend that people have heard his good stuff, and still think it's crap, then how come no one can explain this?
The affirmative side has presented specific evidence of the wholesome goodness of great Zappa material.
No one has touched my contention that Waka/Jawaka is a great album. Since no one has mentioned this, you must agree it is a great album, I guess...
I'm trying to figure out if some people have really heard any of his good stuff, or if they're bullshitting on this. From what I have seen, people who say they have heard his stuff have been mentioning bad albums
It seems like you have a hard time understanding that musical taste cannot be quantified. You think Zappa is a genius. Not everyone does. Every opinion is valid to the person who has it. Further, not everyone who dislikes Zappa's music is "wrong". Has it ever occurred to you that one of the Zappa albums you personally rate as crap could be another Zappa fan's favorite album? I know it sounds crazy, but it is entirely possible.
Again, there is no right or wrong musical taste. I cannot fathom why you have trouble with this.
Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:The negative side has lost this debate because they have not provided a shred of evidence.
The negative side has "lost" this silly (but thoroughly entertaining) game in this particular instance because more people have voted NOT CRAP than CRAP. I don't understand why you're so competitive, when nothing is at stake. In the second Crap/Not Crap poll I ever posted, I was one of TWO not crap votes. I was not offended by this, and I did not try to proselytize to all the crap voters. People like and dislike different things for different reasons. No one owes anyone a shred of "evidence" to back up their opinion. You may disagree with it, but, again, musical taste cannot be quantified. Fawn over Zappa's "good stuff" all you like, but I'm still going to think his music is crap.
I'll play along point-by-point, even though it means I'll have to repeat myself yet again...
Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I'm not trying to change people's minds.
Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Here are my three main arguments for Zappa:
1. He has a yuge [sic] amount of very amazing music that has influenced music you listen to, whether you like it or not.
placeholder wrote:I have never called into question Zappa's influence or intelligence or any of that (I did make fun of some of his subject matter, but that's about it)...I'm not denying his influence on subsequent musicians or his work ethic or his "chops" or anything else. I just do not like his music.
Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:2. It is obvious that the people who *persist* with attacks on Zappa haven't heard one of his good albums...
placeholder wrote:It seems like you have a hard time understanding that musical taste cannot be quantified...Every opinion is valid to the person who has it...There is no right or wrong musical taste. I cannot fathom why you have trouble with this.
Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:3. Groups like Ensemble Modern and Other Minds have dedicated a lot of time and energy to preserving and promoting the great works of Frank Zappa. Long after people have forgotten who "Hoodie and the Wallet Chains" are, people will still be playing, studying, and enjoying Zappa compositions... He will be remembered.
placeholder wrote:Does the fact that people are "keeping his great works alive" automatically make it not crap? I don't think so. Many modern organizations are keeping the "great works" of Elvis Presley (another musician whose influence can't be denied) alive, and I think his music was pretty abysmal as well. There are millions of people keeping Thomas Kincaide's "great works" alive, and that certainly doesn't make him not crap to me...You cannot prove somebody's opinion about art is invalid, no matter how popular said art is in certain circles.
Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Let's see if anyone can figure out how to discuss Zappa's music.
It looks like everyone here already knows how to discuss Zappa just fine. Maybe not on your terms, but just fine nonetheless.
Let's see if you can figure out how to stop trying to pass your opinions off as facts.
matthew wrote:His Life and his Death gives us LIFE.......supernatural life- which is His own life because he is God and Man. This is all straight Catholicism....no nuttiness or mystical crap here.